Intellectualist Elitists are anti-American and we just ain't a-gonna take it no more!

[Yeager]

dos.....please, keep it simple and straight to the point.  Too many peeps come here to impress themselves with their witty ability to put a bunch of fancy sounding words together and when they are done structuring a truly complex and impressive sentence, it makes absolutely no sense.

Are you saying that the Bush war on islamic fanaticism resulting from the mass murder of nearly 3000 american civilians on Spetember 11, 2001 has had its share of failures and further, that this equates to a generalized failure of the entire foreign policy of the Bush administartion?

Or, are you saying something else?

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by lazs2
soo.. arlo and moray do not agree with me that the current educational system is the main culprit in the dumbing of America?

I am not surprised.   That would mean not being a good democrat.. hurting the poor saintly teachers and their union and not allowing poor and illegal children any "opportunity"..

It would mean vouchers.  it would mean that you stop blaming the parents and for what kids learn in school and blame the people who are supposed to be teaching them.. who are the highest paid part time workers as a group...who have the kids for most of their productive hours of the day.

moray says that I am unable to reason.. to collect data and come to a reasoned opinion..  what he means is that we both look at data and he uses the data that he likes to form his opinion and that I do the same.. both of us use sources that are much more informed and educated on the subject than either of us and are roughly equal but...  

lazs

Actually, no I don't agree with you.... but only to a point.  I feel that education has become another "freedom"  to many people, and that it is something which you can have or can choose not to have.... and their opinion is still valid in either case.

It is an idealism problem, not a systemic problem.  Of course there are bad teachers out there....I'm not arguing that.  I'm saying that there are WAY more bad students... and that is from our "instant gratification" based culture, that puts no weight on long term variables.

I'll tell you what Lazs.... Come and teach some of my biology lectures, tell me how good the kids are.  Classes are simply looked on as a requirement, not a mode with which to better oneself.  All 85% of them want to know is..."is that going to be on the test?".  I'm pretty sure you will suddenly realize that what I am saying is very true.

[lazs2]

moray.. not sure we are so far off of agreement in this.   I will only say that the little schoolhouse on the prairie did a better job of teaching than todays learning factories.

The fact remains that every year..the kids learn less.  There can be no doubt that the reason is that they are simply taught less.  

Every year we spend more and we give more control to the liberal school boards and department of education and let them try new methods and every year.. the kids learn less.

Kids who don't know when WWII happened and who was on what side.   Kids who can't read.

If we didn't know those things we did not advance... if we did not advance enough times we were thrown out so as to not ruin it for the other kids.   If we misbehaved the teachers hit us.

Kids are not even curious about how things work anymore.

I did just an hour ago listen to Mssss jacoby on NPR and I have never heard so much jibberish..  backpeddling and excuse making.   blame blame blame..

But..  always the defence of socialistic school systems.

vouchers are the only way out of this mess... You want to see parents get involved?   let em vote with their vocher money and the problem will go away.

lazs

[lazs2]

and.. the so called anti science and anti intellectual...  it is not that at all.. if there is doubt then the scientists have no one but themselves to blame... their constant "the sky is falling" and the fact that they have cried wolf so many times and their penchant for politicizing science..

They are the ones who have made people doubt their ability and their honesty and.... morality.

jacoby herself was saying how that there were only so many hours in a day..  not to be wasted on utube and whatever.. but.. nothing was said of the hours that teachers waste with PC crap instead of what was the civil war.

She went livid when it was suggested that things like affirmative action were contributing to the problem.   She spent the entire time blaming everything but the educational system.. except maybe to say that it needed even more funding and.. no doubt.. more time off for teachers and more "involvement" by parents.

In the days when kids left school being able to read...  we had very little "involvement" by parents..  the teachers did their job..  not as well as catholic school (you could see the drift in quality even then) but... far better than they do now.

lazs

[bustr]

Laz,

Chicago has started thinking like you and are trying this....

Chicago looks to 'turnarounds' to lift failing schools

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0215/p01s03-usgn.html?page=1

In essence they are blaming the teachers and principals. Removing them with the allowance to reapply. Then cleaning the school up and hiring teachers and principals who will teach.

The article is 3 pages but worth the read.

[wrag]

Here is a little more regarding REQUIRED schooling ....

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56894

I have NO PROBLEM with people choosing a LIFE style.

But IMHO the STATE does NOT have the right to FORCE LIFE style teaching on children against the parents will.

IMHO this sort of thing is GOING TOO FAR and usurping parental rights.

The REQUIRING of teaching global warming, as the JURY (scientific community) is still arguing it's validity, is within the same order of such things.

There MUST be a balance between freedom, rights, and liberty vs what gets taught to our children.

AND IMHO that balance is way off right now.

[lazs2]

I think that a lot of the distrust of science stated in the last century when the scientists started to get so political and so much of their income was tied to grants.

The first big one was eugenics..   this caused a distrust of science.. lots of bogus health scares and blunders.. xrays for everything.. mercury fillings for your teeth..  new ice age.. PC and pycobabble..  the scientists and intellectuals are doing it to themselves with their greed and arrogance.

The man made global warming scam will drive them even farther from the pedestal they so much want to be on.

lazs

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
I think that a lot of the distrust of science stated in the last century when the scientists started to get so political and so much of their income was tied to grants.

Not to be confused with the supposedly "larger" group of "scientists" (and even "doctors") who got into politics because most (or maybe even all) of their income was tied to corporate profit/kickback? Remember ... cigarettes don't kill people ... lighting them and inhaling them for years does.

One-sided arguments based on nothing much more than dislike for the other side do not a balanced approach make. But then ... you gotta stand for an extreme agenda of some kind or you'll fall for any moderate thing, I suppose.

We don't need no steenkin' psuedo-scientists feedin' us fake information and skeerin' the wimminfolk and kids into commiehood! Save the planet and kill the grant-abusing traitors!

[lazs2]

Not one sided at all arlo.. thank you for proving my point that most scientists are potatos for the money..

It is difficult to trust them when they are so willing to potato out for whoever they think will pay em the most or what agenda they have on a personal level.

the distrust is well founded.    and..  it is, as I said.. their own fault.

Yet, they refuse to accept blame and call it the dumbing of America.

lazs

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by lazs2
Not one sided at all arlo.. thank you for proving my point that most scientists are potatos for the money..

It is difficult to trust them when they are so willing to potato out for whoever they think will pay em the most or what agenda they have on a personal level.

the distrust is well founded.    and..  it is, as I said.. their own fault.

Yet, they refuse to accept blame and call it the dumbing of America.

lazs

Yet again you prove that you understand so very little about what you are talking about.

If you understood point one about this "grant system" you wouldn't even talk this way.  Please Lazs, go read up and find out how it works...not how someone else TELLS you how to feel.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
.. thank you for proving my point

1: I didn't.

2: So don't rely so much on me doing it when you couldn't.

[Dos Equis]

Originally posted by lazs2
I think that a lot of the distrust of science stated in the last century when the scientists started to get so political and so much of their income was tied to grants.

The first big one was eugenics..   this caused a distrust of science.. lots of bogus health scares and blunders.. xrays for everything.. mercury fillings for your teeth..  new ice age.. PC and pycobabble..  the scientists and intellectuals are doing it to themselves with their greed and arrogance.

The man made global warming scam will drive them even farther from the pedestal they so much want to be on.

lazs

Wow.

Read the Wikipedia definition of anti-intellectualism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism

Then re-read lazs2 here. Compare.

[moot]

More like anti-neurotic IMO.

[Arlo]

Van Gogh's paintings looked normal to him and cutting off his own ear seemed natural. Now if the majority of the people were "Van Goghs" ...  well, guess that would be "normal." Alas, `ol VG looking at other people weird because he thought they were was perception versus reality.

"Anti-neuros" probably need to start with themselves foist.

Nice paintings though, eh?

[wrag]

Just out of curiosity does anyone remember what Chairman Mao did with the intellectuals after he took power?

OOOPS edited for the following

Pol Pot what did he do with em?