Author Topic: Corsair stalls  (Read 2449 times)

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2008, 01:19:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Quite an uppity tone, stoney. I could walk up to you for saying "it's a sunny day" and yell "SOURCE?!?!" in a confrontational manner, and would be received in better light than you are now.

Grow up a bit.


EDIT: I say this because you parrot that question as if it's a learned behavioral response and not an actual inquiry. Your mind is already made up and you shut out any other ideas. It's not a question to you, so why phrase it as one?


He's reactionary, you say? Heh. I see. :D

Offline Stoney

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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2008, 01:44:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Quite an uppity tone, stoney. I could walk up to you for saying "it's a sunny day" and yell "SOURCE?!?!" in a confrontational manner, and would be received in better light than you are now.

Grow up a bit.


EDIT: I say this because you parrot that question as if it's a learned behavioral response and not an actual inquiry. Your mind is already made up and you shut out any other ideas. It's not a question to you, so why phrase it as one?


You miss my point Krusty.  People make claims all the time on these boards using nothing other than anecdotes.  I'm just trying to provoke some research/documentation for posts on this board, especially when commenting on the aerodynamic/flight characteristics of aircraft that are subject to a lot of folklore.  If he had said "the flaps on these planes are totally unrealistic [History of the Corsair, by Bob Johnson]", rattled off some aerodynamic formula proving the flapped wing area was insufficient to create the amount of lift modelled in the game, or posted a link to some test data, etc.  Something other than simply an unsupported statement would be nice.

This isn't a personal attack on JB.  I've flown with him before and believe he's a valuable member of the community.  Just trying to make a point that those types of statements are lost without some sort of documentation to make it a rational statement.
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Offline Noir

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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2008, 06:57:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney
Noir...Any idea who wrote that article???

This should be interesting...


I do not care who wrote this site really, I've seen this site long ago when surfing these boards, so I'll assume its someone posting here....

Anyway the F4U4 is indeed a very good fighter-bomber, I can't think of anything that can beat it (Hellcat maybe ?), except on its flight time at military power wich is fairly low in AH. My point was no to argue about the conclusion of the article, but how the writer compared planes...

US planes.....what else ?
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Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2008, 08:51:16 AM »
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Originally posted by Noir
US planes.....what else ?

There are no others.. :D

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2008, 09:19:29 AM »
Quote
You miss my point Krusty. People make claims all the time on these boards using nothing other than anecdotes. I'm just trying to provoke some research/documentation for posts on this board, especially when commenting on the aerodynamic/flight characteristics of aircraft that are subject to a lot of folklore. If he had said "the flaps on these planes are totally unrealistic [History of the Corsair, by Bob Johnson]", rattled off some aerodynamic formula proving the flapped wing area was insufficient to create the amount of lift modelled in the game, or posted a link to some test data, etc. Something other than simply an unsupported statement would be nice.


You are exactly right on this Stoney, annecdotal evidence will turn this Simm into an Arcade game in minutes if you let it.

It is not as if there is no Stall test done on the F4U in which to create an accurate flight model, in fact of all of the aircraft in AH the F4U probably is in the top three as far as available flight test data (The Spit may have more). You can literally open the Flight manual and see the exact stall speed and depature behaivor in all flight conditions and weights. There is no ambiguity here, if it is believed the stall is modelled incorrectly compare it to the test results and move forward from there. The term "Ensign Eliminator" proves nothing as far as designing a Flight Model. In fact the stalls of several other A/C in AH are considered to be worse by flight testing standards including the Pony and Focke Wolf. Going back to the initial post of this thread the statement is made
Quote
They would drop a wing and enter a spin at the onset of a very abrupt stall
A spin, Really? This was the Airwarrior Flight Model from 10 years ago.

Why doesn't someone do a flight test of stall speed and altitude loss and present this back to Pyro and HTC?

Offline AKDogg

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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2008, 09:43:51 AM »
I guess I need to stop killing all u spit, niki and lala dweebs in my corsair.  Now u guys gonna try to pork my hog. hehehehe.:noid
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2008, 09:54:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Noir
I do not care who wrote this site really, I've seen this site long ago when surfing these boards, so I'll assume its someone posting here....

Anyway the F4U4 is indeed a very good fighter-bomber, I can't think of anything that can beat it (Hellcat maybe ?), except on its flight time at military power wich is fairly low in AH. My point was no to argue about the conclusion of the article, but how the writer compared planes...

US planes.....what else ?


What else, in any air force, can claim parity with the F4U-4 in WWII?

A fighter bomber is multi-role aircraft. It must be able to deliver ordnance accurately on target, and excel in the role of air superiority.

The principle high end fighter-bombers of WWII would include the F4U-1D, F4U-4, F6F-5, P-51D, P-47D, Typhoon, Mosquito, P-38 and the Fw 190F/G. You could argue that the Tempest V would be in this group too, although it saw much less ground work than the Tiffie.

There's little point in looking at the earlier F4U as it is completely outclassed by the -4. The F6F-5 was very good, but it lacked the speed to deal with late war fighters as well as the F4U-4 could.

When we look at the P-47D, we see a very able attack platform, but it was out of its element at lower altitudes and inferior as a fighter to most of the competition down low.

In contrast, the P-38 was excellent. Adequate speed, good climb rate, agile and capable of hauling 4,000 lb of ordnance. Nonetheless, it was difficult to fly and maintain and had reached the end of practical development.

Hawker's Typhoon gave great service as a fighter-bomber. However, it was not much of a fighter, except down low. Even there, it was only marginal compared to the most of the group.

Much has been written about the Mosquito. It was the most versatile aircraft of the war. Unfortunately, it was generally over-matched against single-engine fighters. Mosquitoes were used mostly in the interdiction role, and often with some degree of fighter cover.

Focke Wulfs proved quite versatile as well, but the F and G models were usually at a disadvantage when opposed by pure fighter types.

While the Tempest proved very fast at low and medium altitudes, it was a relatively poor performer above 20,000 feet. It lacked the full range of versatility common to many US types.

Finally, we come to the P-51. Very fast, long range, good ordnance load and the ability to go from attack profile to top tier fighter at all altitudes. I rate it the 2nd best all around fighter of the war. Not THE best in many categories, but so well rounded that it is superior to all but the mighty F4U-4.

This is borne out by the fact that of all of the fighters listed above, only the F4U-4 and P-51D were still performing their multi-role missions 5 years later in Korea. Mustangs were withdrawn from combat before the Corsairs were due to one reason, survivability/attrition. The F4U was far more durable and resistant to ground fire.

As the premier fighter-bomber of WWII, no other aircraft could match the combination of versatility and performance offered by the F4U-4.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2008, 11:37:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
You are exactly right on this Stoney, annecdotal evidence will turn this Simm into an Arcade game in minutes if you let it.


No, I don't think he is. And no, it won't.

Nobody is saying use only anecdotes.

However, consider the 109 flight models in this game. The 190 flight models. The NUMBERS were right, they hit the right stall speeds, but everything ELSE about them was totally off. They snap-stalled inverted in a split second with the lightest of backpressure at any speed below 250mph, for the 190s. The 109s were totally unstable for me. I literally could not fly them until AH2 came out. It was some bug, and others have noticed the same thing, where it felt as if the plane were on a gimble, one wing would snap stall then the other, and it would be unflyable. A few folks experienced some similar things, but I *guess* it had something to do with the way the code was running on my older machine (at the time). Then AH2 comes around and they get into accelerated stalls whilst in level, gentle, flight. The stall speeds might have been the same, but the handling was not.

Look at ALL the anecdotal evidence regarding quality of that flight, not the quantity of the mph. Nowhere did it show 190s snap stalling with even 1.1Gs nor did it show the 109s not being able to pull a certain AOA (can't recall what it was, the guy who did the turn tests figured out the angle, and it was 2x worse than any other plane in the game save for the 190) without stalling out.

So HTC goes back and totally rewrites all their airflow code.

Viola! Guess what?! The planes don't do these unhistorical things anymore! However they STILL hit the numbers.



IL2 hits the numbers and nothing else. Every plane flies like every other plane. In AH the individual handling of planes is also modeled.

Right now, the corsairs don't match up. The NUMBERS may be spot on but not the rest.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 11:45:20 AM by Krusty »

Offline moot

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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2008, 12:03:32 PM »
Widewing if I may go off topic for one post, how would the F7F and F8F have compared to the F4U4?  IIRC one or both of them were otw to the front lines when the war ended.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2008, 12:30:22 PM »
The F7F actually was in operational service in 4/44 and delivered to the fleet in 5/44. It simply never saw combat....

Corky Meyer (the test pilot for the F7F) felt it was the best prop fighter he ever flew by a wide margin. Fred Trappell was chief test pilot for the navy during WW2. He is most famous for approving the F6F for production in 1 day (8,000 had been built before it actually "passed" formal testing). Corky ran into him after the war during testing for the F9F and queried him on the F7F and got a blistering rendition of all its shortcomings (Trappells personal plane was an F7F)...so corky asked him why he was flying one...

 "If you dislike the Tigercat so much, why do you always fly it?" He explained: "The excess power of its two engines is wonderful for aerobatics; the cockpit planning and the forward visibility in the carrier approach is the best in any fighter ever built; the tricycle landing gear allows much faster pilot checkouts; the roll with the power boost rudder is faster than the ailerons; and it has a greater range than any fighter in inventory." Again, he was absolutely right. As he climbed up the ladder to the cockpit, he turned around, grinned and told me, "It's the best damn fighter I've ever flown." I realized he had thrown the entire test-pilot schoolbook at me with his succinct tirade and that we were probably pretty close in our opinions regarding the handling characteristics that define a really good fighter.

Corky's article on the F7F
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 12:33:41 PM by humble »

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Offline moot

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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2008, 12:50:27 PM »
A whole operational year without any contact?
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2008, 01:01:54 PM »
Stateside evaluation isn't really "service" -- that's trials IMO

Offline humble

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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2008, 01:06:12 PM »
It had a bunch of "issues" primarily related to passing the spin portions of the testing and then carrier qualifications. It was flown by a stateside landbased USMC unit but never deployed to a combat area....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2008, 01:07:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Stateside evaluation isn't really "service" -- that's trials IMO


It was not in evaluation, it was operationally deployed to a single squadron which was never deployed to a combat role.

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Offline Noir

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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2008, 01:07:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
What else, in any air force, can claim parity with the F4U-4 in WWII?

A fighter bomber is multi-role aircraft. It must be able to deliver ordnance accurately on target, and excel in the role of air superiority.

The principle high end fighter-bombers of WWII would include the F4U-1D, F4U-4, F6F-5, P-51D, P-47D, Typhoon, Mosquito, P-38 and the Fw 190F/G. You could argue that the Tempest V would be in this group too, although it saw much less ground work than the Tiffie.

There's little point in looking at the earlier F4U as it is completely outclassed by the -4. The F6F-5 was very good, but it lacked the speed to deal with late war fighters as well as the F4U-4 could.

When we look at the P-47D, we see a very able attack platform, but it was out of its element at lower altitudes and inferior as a fighter to most of the competition down low.

In contrast, the P-38 was excellent. Adequate speed, good climb rate, agile and capable of hauling 4,000 lb of ordnance. Nonetheless, it was difficult to fly and maintain and had reached the end of practical development.

Hawker's Typhoon gave great service as a fighter-bomber. However, it was not much of a fighter, except down low. Even there, it was only marginal compared to the most of the group.

Much has been written about the Mosquito. It was the most versatile aircraft of the war. Unfortunately, it was generally over-matched against single-engine fighters. Mosquitoes were used mostly in the interdiction role, and often with some degree of fighter cover.

Focke Wulfs proved quite versatile as well, but the F and G models were usually at a disadvantage when opposed by pure fighter types.

While the Tempest proved very fast at low and medium altitudes, it was a relatively poor performer above 20,000 feet. It lacked the full range of versatility common to many US types.

Finally, we come to the P-51. Very fast, long range, good ordnance load and the ability to go from attack profile to top tier fighter at all altitudes. I rate it the 2nd best all around fighter of the war. Not THE best in many categories, but so well rounded that it is superior to all but the mighty F4U-4.

This is borne out by the fact that of all of the fighters listed above, only the F4U-4 and P-51D were still performing their multi-role missions 5 years later in Korea. Mustangs were withdrawn from combat before the Corsairs were due to one reason, survivability/attrition. The F4U was far more durable and resistant to ground fire.

As the premier fighter-bomber of WWII, no other aircraft could match the combination of versatility and performance offered by the F4U-4.

My regards,

Widewing


I'll have to agree with this, the french flew the F4U4 until 1960 or so :aok , but again my whine was not about the F4U4 performance, but the way that guy wrote about it.

Widewing and lets pray for new mosquito variants
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