Author Topic: 1st kill  (Read 3908 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
1st kill
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2008, 09:04:04 AM »
indy..  do you think that it is more humane to run down a deer and rip it's throat out or to put a 30 caliber bullet through it's heart and lungs?

One of the things that seperate us from the animals is the use of tools.  A gun is a tool for harvesting meat.. venison is meat.   I suppose we could dig a pit and fill it full of spikes or corner a deer and spear it to death but..  What's the point?

If you can hunt.. you have learned a valuable skill and you are out in nature.   Not everyone can do it.

I haven't in years.. I do my hunting at safeway these days.  I still love to be outdoors tho.    I am not gonna make friends with the critters tho and end up as bear poop like some of the morons who get all mushy about wild critters.

lazs

Offline Major Biggles

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
      • 71 Squadron Website
1st kill
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2008, 09:14:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SIG220
Our ancestors have been predators for 200,000 years.  Killing is built into our DNA for the male of our species, as we have spent the vast majority of that time living as hunter/gatherers.

One local rancher recently had a cougar come in one night and kill 18 of his sheep, even though it only dragged off one to eat.   Why did it kill the other 17??



yes, but i disagree with all those fat losers who sit their with their gun and blast loads of animals for fun to make them feel like a man.

i've killed a lot of stuff, mostly to eat (damn, pheasants really are some of the tastiest meat around, imagine a really rich taste and textured chicken/duck mix). that said though, anything i've killed i want to kill in the quickest most humane way possible. it's our responsibility not only to protect the animals from excess harm and pain, but also to protect these animals as resources for future generations. shooting things just as a trophy i do have a problem with. the animal should be shot for a good reason.

a lot of hunters don't think about their responsibility to nature, which is a big problem. i agree however that there is a primitive urge in all predators to kill.

i can't stand vegetarians, where are they supposed to get their protein, quorn? lolz.

71 'Eagle' Squadron RAF

Member DFC

Offline SkyRock

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7758
1st kill
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2008, 09:26:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
Best line in the whole jumbled up mess.
Sort of says it all doesn`t it? :)

If me and my brother do not kill some of the heard of deer on our land, they will over populate the limited area.  Then we will see the harmful effects of overpopulation like we did in the mid-80's.  Not a good sight to see animals starving to death, would rather cull a few here and there to help them manage what they are incapable of understanding.  Population management has nothing to do with grocery stores.:aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline indy007

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
1st kill
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2008, 10:01:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
indy..  do you think that it is more humane to run down a deer and rip it's throat out or to put a 30 caliber bullet through it's heart and lungs?

One of the things that seperate us from the animals is the use of tools.  A gun is a tool for harvesting meat.. venison is meat.   I suppose we could dig a pit and fill it full of spikes or corner a deer and spear it to death but..  What's the point?

If you can hunt.. you have learned a valuable skill and you are out in nature.   Not everyone can do it.

I haven't in years.. I do my hunting at safeway these days.  I still love to be outdoors tho.    I am not gonna make friends with the critters tho and end up as bear poop like some of the morons who get all mushy about wild critters.

lazs


Either way it's gonna die, so I'm not particular. I know which one I'd pay to see though.

On your topic of tools, well, we figured out how to build fences and create sustainable agriculture... so harvesting meat is already simple and efficient. So simple and efficient you don't need a spike pit OR a gun. What's the point when you can just run to the store? There isn't one either way. Thus, if you're going to hunt, drop the easy-mode crap, work for it, and make it a legitamately manly sport :)

Hmm, could be that I personally enjoy the fight much more than the win.

Offline Leslie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2212
1st kill
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 11:24:07 AM »
Just curious, where did the manly aspect of hunting come into discussion?  Never saw where anyone posting here said hunting is manly.  Imo hunting is good for women too.

The manly aspect where hunting is concerned comes from a father spending time with their children enjoying the wonders of nature.  The hunt is enjoyable without killing anything.  After all, it's called hunting, not killing.  And this is one of the lessons learned concerning respect of nature, that you don't shoot up the woods killing everything in sight.

The true spirit of hunting is probably best referenced to hunting practices by native American Indians, who had great respect for the game they hunted.  They wasted no part of an animal they killed, and held an animal's spirit in high regard.  This is the right way to go about hunting, an ideal to be upheld.  Respect comes from killing what you need, eating what you kill and not littering up the woods.

It is true that nature can be enjoyed by hiking and camping out, but there is a spiritual connect with the taking of a life that causes introspection into the ethics surrounding such an event, and from which compassion is learned.  This is the value of hunting, and yes, one of the things which are good in a man (or a woman.)

I tried Googling what hunting teaches children, and found interesting results, though nothing I didn't already know or predict.  The majority of articles praised hunting as very good for kids.  Hunting is endorsed by most educators and psychologists as valuable for teaching ethics and responsibility to children, and has had good results when dealing with kids in dysfunctional settings.  The one negative article I found was a letter to the editor of the NY Times.  This speaks for itself.

The concept of manliness and doing what is manly changes over time.  When you're young, manliness is measured by physical abilities it seems.  This is why as an adult entering old fartdom, I have a hard time grasping the idea of hunting as manly.  Or more to the point, why detractors of hunting think hunters think of themselves as manly.  I've hunted many years and never did I consider it manly, just fun mostly and perhaps hard work at times.  I've not met anyone who took up hunting because it was manly.  Could this concept be a media perpetuated stereotype?  Along with beer guzzling rednecks blowing away songbirds left and right?  This is what they want you to believe.

I could be wrong.  Do any hunters here hunt because it's manly?  Please speak up.

Marlon Brando probably said it best in The Godfather.  "A man who does not spend time with his family cannot call himself a man." -  Don Corleone





Les

Offline cav58d

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3985
1st kill
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2008, 11:53:24 AM »
Top five signs you’ve hired the wrong hunting guide:

    5.  Your guide blows into big sea shell horn to attract game and a bunch of Vikings show up instead.
    4.  Your guide is completely outfitted with "Barney" camping equipment.
    3.  As you close in on a deer, your guide whispers in an Elmer Fudd voice, "Be vehhwey vehhwey quiet."
    2.  He calls trees by their first names.
    And the number one sign you’ve hired the wrong hunting guide:
    1.   He is prone to scream, "Run, Bambi, RUN!"
<S> Lyme

Sick Puppies II

412th Friday Night Volunteer Group

Offline indy007

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
1st kill
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2008, 01:06:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
The true spirit of hunting is probably best referenced to hunting practices by native American Indians, who had great respect for the game they hunted.  They wasted no part of an animal they killed, and held an animal's spirit in high regard.  This is the right way to go about hunting, an ideal to be upheld.  Respect comes from killing what you need, eating what you kill and not littering up the woods.


This is a perpetuation of the "Noble Savage" myth, and a lie. Humans hunt things to extinction. Some cultures simply have the technology to do it more effeciently. See a place who's name translates to "Head Smashed In". Entire herds were driven over the cliff, far, far more than could be eaten by the entire tribe in the amount of time it would take for the rest of the carcasses to rot and become useless.

Quote

The concept of manliness and doing what is manly changes over time.  When you're young, manliness is measured by physical abilities it seems.  This is why as an adult entering old fartdom, I have a hard time grasping the idea of hunting as manly.  Or more to the point, why detractors of hunting think hunters think of themselves as manly.  I've hunted many years and never did I consider it manly, just fun mostly and perhaps hard work at times.  I've not met anyone who took up hunting because it was manly.  Could this concept be a media perpetuated stereotype?  Along with beer guzzling rednecks blowing away songbirds left and right?  This is what they want you to believe.


You ever met my g/f's family? :lol It's not the media that perpetuates stereotypes. In fact, I can't remember ever seeing media showing hunting in a negative light, at least not on my news.. unless you count Dick Cheney, which I don't. The news likes to focus on the indian-spiritual-mumbo-jumbo too.

Offline Jackal1

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9092
1st kill
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2008, 01:13:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyRock
If me and my brother do not kill some of the heard of deer on our land, they will over populate the limited area.  Then we will see the harmful effects of overpopulation like we did in the mid-80's.  Not a good sight to see animals starving to death, would rather cull a few here and there to help them manage what they are incapable of understanding.  Population management has nothing to do with grocery stores.:aok


Exactly.
As I said earlier, at one time in my state deer were at the end of the road.
Overpopulation, with no hunting to speak of caused inferior stock which in turn brought on sickness and disease.
The programs put in place and paid for with hunter`s money and support now has us back to one of the best whitetail herds in the nation.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline SkyRock

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7758
1st kill
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2008, 01:35:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
This is a perpetuation of the "Noble Savage" myth, and a lie.  Entire herds were driven over the cliff, far, far more than could be eaten by the entire tribe in the amount of time it would take for the rest of the carcasses to rot and become useless.


 I am not sure where you got your information from but it is way off base.  The plains indians to which you refer, had many techniques for saving meat and used nearly the entire animal they killed in one capacity or the other.  They dried their meat(called pemmican), which is much like beef jerky via a modern dehydrator.  Pemmican could be stored to eat later without spoiling.  They also used the hide for robes to keep warm and for making mattresses.  The skin made parfleches and the bones were used as tools and weapons.  Buffalo horns were used as bowls and spoons and the stomach was used as a water pouch or a cooking pot.  Buffalo hair was stuffed into rawhide and made into game balls. The hooves became rattles. Even the tail was used as a fly swatter.




 
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
The news likes to focus on the indian-spiritual-mumbo-jumbo too.
It was the "Indian-spiritual-mumbo-jumbo" that allowed Indians to respectfully enjoy the offerings of the land for thousands of years before the non-"indian-spiritual-mumbo-jumbo" types came in and wiped the buffalo almost to extinction in less than 100 years.  I'm not saying that I believe the "spirtual-mumbo-jumbo" stuff was true, just that it kept the indians in deep respect for mother earth, which is where we all should be.

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline indy007

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
1st kill
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2008, 02:07:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyRock
I am not sure where you got your information from but it is way off base.


Archeaology is fun. I didn't argue about what they used from the single kills. I pointed out that they did kill more than was neccessary. Phsyical evidence shows this to be true. It's not exclusive to the Indians either, and has happened all over the world, to the extent some noble savages drove themselves into extinction. It's about population demands and basic technology like sustainable agriculture, not some romantic notion about respecting nature. Try "The Science of Good & Evil" by Dr. Michael Shermer, then hit me up with a PM or email if you'd like to discuss it. This thread has already been horribly derailed.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
1st kill
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2008, 02:12:38 PM »
the indians hunted and polluted a spot until they could no longer use it.   they were nomads because of that..  fortunately.. they killed each other and never developed any real medical skills so they died like flies.. this is not exactly noble but it worked to keep the population down.    

As for manly.. I concur that it is not a matter of what is manly or not but just getting out in the woods and harvesting your own food would by nature be more "manly" than putting on your makeup and suit and riding in a taxi to the ballet.

lazs

Offline SkyRock

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7758
1st kill
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2008, 03:48:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
not some romantic notion about respecting nature.


I would have to disagree to a point on this, just for the sake of romantics.  Although there is evidence of what you suggested, the largest and most notable tribes of the plains indians did in fact use only what they needed later on as their way of life stabilized.  Once their weaponry evolved to a practical level, and the appearance of the use of horses, the "hunt" was romanticized into their culture of spiritualism.  Shooting buffalo with a bow, form the bare back of a horse became a social event as well as part of establishing "clout" among warriors.  As far as the mass killings(cliff stampede's, chasing them into deep snow, chasing them into rivers, and chasing them into corals or natural "traps"), these were found to have happened early on in the growth of the plains indians development.  As far as can be told by the findings, the indians did in fact take the meat and hides, but had no use for the many bones and horns that were left.   After all, how many spoons, bowls and tools do you need, lol.

To make a point, the indians were definitely more aware of how the depletion of resources affected their environment as compared to the more advanced European civilization that overwhelmed them.  They were extremely in touch with the environment and were some of the earliest voices of environmentalism.  Of course, it is easier to be environmentally concience when you "own" thousands of square miles of natural habitat.



Quote
Originally posted by indy007
Try "The Science of Good & Evil" by Dr. Michael Shermer, then hit me up with a PM or email if you'd like to discuss it. This thread has already been horribly derailed.
sounds like a good read.  Thanks.

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
1st kill
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2008, 03:53:04 PM »
I wonder if I could get away with Tiger hunting....
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline AWMac

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9251
1st kill
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2008, 04:01:12 PM »
Mmmmmmmmm Pheasant.

Offline Choocha

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 184
1st kill
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2008, 08:22:18 PM »
"The amount of time a man spends killing for sport is inversely related to his noodle size." -Sigmund Freud