Author Topic: worlds smallest working gun.  (Read 3719 times)

Offline john9001

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2008, 09:10:58 AM »
bbbb...  I watched a 38 bounce off a guys head.   it was pretty darn good shot placement too since it hit him about an inch and a half above his eyebrow.   


your supposed to shoot it, not throw it.

Offline SD67

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2008, 03:38:44 PM »
 :rofl
I was thinking the same thing!
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Offline BBBB

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2008, 05:23:22 PM »
There are always going to be the 1% situations. I have read reports where the .38 round has failed. However when you look at the type of ammo used it all becomes clear. You have to use the right tool for the job. Using standard FMJ or cheap low grade ammo is going to get you low grade results.

 Once you have picked your caliber, you need to pick the right round in that caliber. Ballistics mean something. You have to take into account that if you have to fire your weapon at someone it is a life and death situation for that person and it has been reported time and time again that humans possess can perform some amazing feats when their life is on the line. It all has to do with the makeup of the person in question.

 As for your 340PD. I would advise against loading it with .357s. I have seen three blow up on the range. There are a couple of websites dedicated to the problem. Shooting a .357 out of a snubbie is over kill in my book, but if you feel it is going to help you win a fight if you ever find yourself in one, then by all means carry a way. I am nobody to be telling you how to live and preserve your life. To each is his own.

 http://www.thegunzone.com/sw340pd.html

 I a little back ground about me so that no one thinks I am just some gun nut. I am a former police officer, I am still an auxiliary Deputy Sheriff for a county south of Atlanta. I only do this to keep my certification here in the state. My uncle is a Sgt with that same department. He has been assigned to the range as the dept range master, armorer and instructor. I have spent hundreds of hours down there with him. I have been able to talk to dozens of officers involved in shootings and watched hours upon hours of shooting and fighting videos from dash cams. This has been a valuable asset in insuring I survive a deadly encounter. 

 I have been lucky, not only do I have my uncle to help me sharpen my teeth, but the range is also shared by the county police and they have two of the finest range masters in the country. Between the three of them I have some of the best instruction money can by all for free.

 I have always been into handguns, shotguns and sub guns. I am not a big rifle guy. I like the CQB stuff. I am not big into martial arts at all, but I do take Krav Maga because it incorporates firearms and it is based around close encounters.

 I feel if you are going to carry a firearm day after day, night after night, to not only defend your life, but the lives of those around you, then you need to make yourself as sharp as possible. I feel it is the users responsibility to train and study, not in the hopes of one day being a hero or a tough guy, but as someone who survived or kept others alive though their knowledge.

 There is a gun by me or on me pretty much all the time. If I have to use that weapon to protect myself, my family or some random person from harm I am going to make sure I have the knowledge and the skill necessary not to fail them or myself.

 There is a county police officer here that has been in three shootings. He has only been on the job for five years too! One on duty and two off duty. He has survived all three. Ask him how he does it? Training. He even used a .22 to save the life of someone else in one of those shootings. It goes to show that with the right training and tactics (software) you can protect yourself or someone else without using a fire breathing, hand cannon or a supped up auto with extended slide release levers and extended mag release button, laser sight/flashlight and a giant Houge slip on grip wrapped around the grip (super computer hardware). People buy that crap because they think it makes the better, when it is in fact training that makes someone better.

 This officer who has been in three shootings, spends a lot of time on the range. He is always asking for help to better himself. That is key, assuming you have all the answers in your first mistake. Asking for help to better yourself is a win-win situation. You get the help you need to better understand something and you make a friend.

 I would advise Laz, keep an open mind when it comes to self defense. It sounds like you do at some level when you made the comment that something is better than nothing. Even the best firearms in the world malfunction. My issued Glock 22 malfunctions from time to time. It happens. You have to be able to roll with the punches, adapt and over come. It is not about winning, it is about surviving. Careful with .357s in that 340, not because I don't think you can handle them..I just don't want to hear about your frame cracking or weapon exploding on you. Stay safe.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 05:30:29 PM by BBBB »

Offline john9001

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2008, 06:17:39 PM »
ah, a 357 cartridge won't fit in a 38 gun, it's too long, they did that on purpose.

you can load 38's in a 357 gun.

i have one of them S&W hammer less airweights with a aluminium frame, S&W does not recommend shooting +P in it, they said it could stretch the frame.

Offline BBBB

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2008, 07:58:21 PM »
I am not sure what you are trying to say John..The 340PD and the 360PD are both .357 mag rated J frame revolvers. Because of this the 340PD and 360PD's in question can also chamber .38 +P and .38 special rounds as well.

 What I was referring to was the 340s coming apart after a few 357 mag loads. I was not talking about loading a .357 round in a standard 38 or 38 +P.

 As you can see in the photo, the 360PD is a .357 Mag rated revolver. I however do not load .357s in it because of the fireball, noise, concussion, recoil and muzzle rise I get when I fire .357 loads out of the 360.





Offline john9001

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2008, 09:59:34 AM »
ok, sorry , i didn't know the 340PD-360PD were 357's.

Offline lazs2

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2008, 10:43:58 AM »
bbbb..  I am not making light of your experience but...  have you read marshall's book "streetstoppers".

the 38 and, even more so, the .380 do fail and, in every brand and type of ammo.

I have fired 4 boxes of 125 grain Federal .357 mags out of the 340 pd.   I do not use the gun for range work or fun shooting but.. it is not in the least bit even "loose"  One guy who is on this board fired most of a box of ammo through it in one short session.

I think that if you have seen 3 of them fail then you should write smith and wesson.   I have never heard of one fail except in that one website (that has been around a long time) that you link.   

My seeing (the guy was right next to me) a 158 grain hp 38 special bounce off someones skull and not stop him does not contradict the evidence of marshalls and others studies.   At best..  a handgun is marginal.

I want as much as I can get.   I have faith that my 340 will fire every time I pull the trigger.  I have faith that reasonable placed shots will do as much to stop an attacker as can be expected from any handgun round.

I feel the same about my 45 Kimber and my cut down 44 mag redhawk but.. these guns are heavy.  the 340 Pd is no more trouble than a cell phone to carry.   I would rather have a 12 guage shotgun or my M1 garand in a shootout but..  I use what I got and what I got.. depends on the situation.   If I ever get attacked at the range or out plinking they are in big trouble eh?  but let's be realistic..  people just won't carry a full sized gun much.

I own a walther ppk in 32.. I own a makarov.. I own a K22 masterpiece..  I know every one of em is capable of killing.. not so sure that they are capable of stopping a fight in time for it to matter to me tho.  that is the crux.. I am not gonna skin and eat em.. I just want to stop the bad man from doing bad things.

I fear the reliablilty of semi autos after 5 decades of shooting em.   I trust miniature autos even less.   I trust J frame and colt small frame and even charter arms small frame revolvers explicitly.    I can hit man sized targets in the vital at 25 yards easily with the 340PD.   A hit with a 125 hp .357 is the best chance you get.   I have not had mine blow up nor have I seen one that was damaged.

A side note is that in sacramento at the gun store,  they had about a half dozen of em on consignment from cops.. the cops who owned em wanted to get rid of em.   they had to qualify with their backup gun and it had to have the ammo they used in it.  It is too punishing to qualify with these guns with full house .357's I will admit that but.. none of em were "blown up".   I would not want to run a course with one but..  there is no course that is anything like any real shooting I have ever heard of.   especially... no civilian shooting I have ever heard of.

Lastly..  I think semi autos make people waste ammo and shoot wildly.   I have always had a "revolver mindset"  that, I only have 5 or six rounds.   even if I have speedloaders or extra ammo..  there is no point in shooting unless you can hit what you aim at or.. have a reasonable chance of doing so.   

I think we agree and am glad to see that you feel shot placement is important.   I think shot placement covers a multitude of caliber/ammo sins.  the .357 or 45 or 44 mag just come with less sins you have to cover for in the first place.

lazs

Offline Mini D

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2008, 10:55:38 AM »
Are those 340's really selling for $1100?

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2008, 10:59:25 AM »
Is anyone else concerned that traffic is even trying to get up rips butt?
You've never had to report weekly to senior management before, have you.  :O  They're always crawling up my arse. :(

Offline lazs2

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2008, 11:06:15 AM »
mini..  I had not heard that.  I paid $750 for mine.   some people who have shot it asked if I could get my money back.

As you can see..  you either hate or love the gun.  it is not one that you shoot often tho but.. I have shot j frames all my life.. this is nothing more than another j frame.. practice with a airweight and wadcutters and you will know all you need to about the 340 when you need to shoot it.

It is a featherlight j frame that is accurate and powerful and.. despite the one old website and BBBB's experience.. they are reliable in the extreme.

lazs

Offline Mini D

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2008, 11:21:44 AM »
I was just looking at the MSRP at S&W's web site. $750 is still alot for that gun. I was expecting closer to the $450-500 range. It must be one fancy alloy.

I was pricing S&W .44 mags yesterday and they were hopping between $850-$950. I can't believe how much revolvers are climbing in price.

Offline lazs2

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2008, 11:28:15 AM »
Mini.. the thing is...

There are no plastic revolvers.   

Price any good quality steel semi auto..  a Kimber for instance.

lazs

Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2008, 11:36:55 AM »
I went to look up "Street Stoppers".  What I found was not good:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

Offline Mini D

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2008, 11:58:43 AM »
The autos have been coming down in price. The revolvers are going up in price. .45's have been high priced for some time, but are starting to drop. You can buy an entry level kimber for less than you paid for your 340. You can buy an entry level .45 (springfield) for significantly less than you paid for your 340. Don't get me wrong... I like revolvers reliability over the autos. I just remember when $600 was a very high price for one. It seems the pricing has completely reversed between the auto and revolver.

Offline lazs2

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Re: worlds smallest working gun.
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2008, 12:27:40 PM »
aqua.. I have read both street stoppers and the critiques of it.  I never paid much attention to stopping power theory..  everyone has an axe to grind it seems.

What I do look at in marshalls book is the pure data from shootings.   the fact is that you have a much better chance of stopping someone quickly with a .357 than from a .380 say.. all else being equal.   Best to just go with proven caliber and bullets.

the critique is valid.. there are mistakes and such in any study but.. they seem to have their own axe to grind and.. the plain truth is that more and more manufacturers and more and more shootings seem to point that a lighter faster bullet in the same caliber will dump more energy and cause more damage and..  will do a better job of stopping an attacker.

For instance.. they don't think much of the 44 mag for stopping power.  they claim that it doesn't instantly stop the bad guy.. yet.. it has everything they ask for.. it has the weight.. the caliber and.. the velocity.. it is big enough and..  not only is it heavy but it has not the problems of heavy bullets.. it is fast.. for a handgun.. and that is the rub.. handgun bullets just don't get going fast enough to cause the kind of hydroshock damage that they seen to believe in.. shot placement.. and penetration and energy transfer (again, shot placement for handguns) seem to still be king.

The 44 mags really do a great job of killing.  they pretty much killed everyone in the study.. they just didn't cause the guy to stop moving in every case.. no handgun bullet does unless it is a zombie killing headshot.   the velocity just isn't there.. the good thing is.. the 44 has enough energy to penetrate to the vitals.. one of the few handgun rounds practical to carry that does.   no handgun round is magic tho.

The truth is..  in real life as in marshalls study.. the .357 works.   Best to go with rounds that work.

lazs