Author Topic: Which AH flight models need the most work?  (Read 1450 times)

Offline Karnak

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Which AH flight models need the most work?
« on: March 08, 2008, 03:46:29 PM »
It seems to me that most aircraft in AH perform in a manner that is a reasonable approximation of the real thing.  But some are well off of their real world performance.

I understand that the F6F-5, Ki-61-I and P-51s underperform in AH.  The F6F-5 is ~20mph too slow at alt, I don't know about the deck speed.  The data Widewing posted shows the Ki-61 turning about like a FM2 in US Navy tests, but in AH it turns more like a P-47.  The P-51s lost a lot of turn capability in one of the resent revisions and are now out turned by P-47s.

It seems to me that the F4Us, Hurricanes and maybe Bf110s overperform.  The F4Us gain a suspicious ammount of lift from their flaps, allowing them to out turn aircraft with much, much lower wing loading.  The Hurricanes may roll 50% too fast and seem not to suffer manueverabilty hits from high speed dives despite having fabric ailerons.  The Bf110s might be a bit agile, hard to say though.


DOes anybody have any data on any issues (even data that says I am wrong) with AH aircraft flight models?
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 03:48:56 PM »
On the 110, I'd say the C was more of an issue than the G.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 03:51:21 PM »
On the 110, I'd say the C was more of an issue than the G.
I am not sure of that.  The G is used an awful lot and in reality it was a dog.  That may be a function of its guns for base attack, but it seems to get a lot of fighter use too.  I think if there are roll rate and/or turn rate issues with the C they likely carry over to the G as well.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 03:52:57 PM »
Ki-61.   I love the bird, it's so underrated and underestimated.   
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 04:07:38 PM »

                       The P-47s and their gas tanks. The fact that I love Jugs so much just increases the pain when, after every dive bombing run, a magic bullet find the gas tanks and Im unable to bring it back to base. The T-bolt had self sealing tanks in real life and shouldnt leak after hits any more then any other Yank fighter. Its a terrific aircraft and had a huge impact on history.

                      Has anyone else noticed this? Most of all the "N" models?
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 05:57:18 PM »
It seems to me that most aircraft in AH perform in a manner that is a reasonable approximation of the real thing.  But some are well off of their real world performance.

I understand that the F6F-5, Ki-61-I and P-51s underperform in AH.  The F6F-5 is ~20mph too slow at alt, I don't know about the deck speed.  The data Widewing posted shows the Ki-61 turning about like a FM2 in US Navy tests, but in AH it turns more like a P-47.  The P-51s lost a lot of turn capability in one of the resent revisions and are now out turned by P-47s.

It seems to me that the F4Us, Hurricanes and maybe Bf110s overperform.  The F4Us gain a suspicious ammount of lift from their flaps, allowing them to out turn aircraft with much, much lower wing loading.  The Hurricanes may roll 50% too fast and seem not to suffer manueverabilty hits from high speed dives despite having fabric ailerons.  The Bf110s might be a bit agile, hard to say though.


DOes anybody have any data on any issues (even data that says I am wrong) with AH aircraft flight models?

I can make a quantitative comparison to show why the P-51's turn ability is comparitavely correct.  However, my comparison seems to be countered by annecdotal evidence to the contrary.  What I will say is that to do so to a degree that approaches the detail that HTC uses to model flight in game would take many hours.  So, given my knowledge of aerodynamics, I can easily push the "I believe" button for the P-51 in game.

Furthermore, lets assume that the same math equations used to control flight dynamics in game are used for every aircraft (i.e. 2+2=4 for every plane).  Wouldn't it be safe to assume that, unless there has been some sort of handicapping by HTC, that all planes perform identically, with respect to their relationship with all other aircraft in the plane set?  Given that assumption, perhaps its the data with which the math equations are acting upon that is, or should be, the focus of our research? 

For example, does anyone know a resource that shows the aileron area, station on wing, and maximum deflections up and down, for the Hurricane?  If, for example, the aileron in AH is modelled with a +/- 30 degree deflection value, and in real life, it only deflected +/- 25 degrees, then there could be an inconsistency.  I've got a feeling that each aircraft is thoroughly researched prior to being modelled, but given that some information on these aircraft is missing or left out of the historical record, there may have been some extrapolation done to make up for any omitted information.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 07:55:15 PM »
Stoney,

I think it is pretty safe to assume the game calculations are global and it is the data we are looking at.  But that data is very broad.  For example, it is Pyro who sets stick forces that limit aileron and elevator travel based on speed, not the game.  I guess the Ki-61 and F6F-5 might be the biggest examples of aircraft that are under performing if the P-51 is doing what it should.
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Offline mipoikel

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2008, 05:32:13 AM »
Im not an expert on these but I would say 190 A8.

I have read real pilots stories about it and they say it was really nice plane to fly.  I just dont beleive it was that bad what we have now.
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Offline thrila

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 08:09:48 AM »
I would like to see the mossie looked at.  I find it hard to believe that the mossie was unable to achieve a sufficient AoA to stall the plane above ~160mph.  At lower speeds in a turn, if no rudder input is added, the stick can be pulled right back with little fear of stalling (the plane may wobble but can be corrected with aileron input).  It's weird, it feels as if it has it's own personal stall limiter installed.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 08:37:20 AM by thrila »
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Offline moot

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2008, 08:28:37 AM »
Thrila I'd noticed that too when I flew the mossie.. Did you try trimming it?
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Offline thrila

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2008, 08:40:27 AM »
I believe so, though i would have to test it out to be positive.  I ought to note as long as the mossie isn't nose high it can be hauled about in turns at low speed with little trouble.  If it is nose high it will require a little less abrupt pulling of the stick but can be done with near full elevator
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Offline republic

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 09:18:00 AM »
110c has a very strange stall that resembles the old mossie stall.  Never noticed it until I used it exclusively for about a week in the AvA.  Harder to trigger than the mossie, but just as deadly.

Also, obviously the Ta-192 needs some love.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2008, 09:22:06 AM »
I would like to see the mossie looked at.  I find it hard to believe that the mossie was unable to achieve a sufficient AoA to stall the plane above ~160mph.  At lower speeds in a turn, if no rudder input is added, the stick can be pulled right back with little fear of stalling (the plane may wobble but can be corrected with aileron input).  It's weird, it feels as if it has it's own personal stall limiter installed.
That is correct. The elevator feels as if it stiffens - something like 109s experience but at much higher speeds.
It almost feels as if the stall limiter is on.

F6F being 20 mph too slow, is one of the most important things to fix - perhaps together with a new 3D model. The current one is outdated and features a wrong and annoying vertical canopy bar.

The P51 and F4Us flight model issues only refer to flying with full flaps extended. Without flaps, their relative performance seems quite alright. The over usage of flaps in this game skews the relative performances and makes comparisons to real data very difficult. This is not how they flew and tested back then.
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Offline bj229r

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2008, 11:55:27 AM »
                       The P-47s and their gas tanks. The fact that I love Jugs so much just increases the pain when, after every dive bombing run, a magic bullet find the gas tanks and Im unable to bring it back to base. The T-bolt had self sealing tanks in real life and shouldnt leak after hits any more then any other Yank fighter. Its a terrific aircraft and had a huge impact on history.

                      Has anyone else noticed this? Most of all the "N" models?
Yah, they are pretty much the only thing I can get kills in, and it seems like every other ping is 'main fuel'--Ive gotten to bringing 75% and no drops (only 7 minutes more fuel than 50+ 1 drop), and leaving the 'aux' tank for last, as it lasts 10 min at max throttle
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Which AH flight models need the most work?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2008, 11:58:37 AM »
Quote
The G is used an awful lot and in reality it was a dog.

You can never rely on AH to tell you which aircraft performed well in the actual war.  The requirements of actually trying to survive, among many other important factors, are just too different from what we do.

Otherwise, I'd like to see some math to back up the claims, though the F6F complaint seems to have merit.
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