worlds smallest working gun.

[BBBB]

There is no real question about the .357. It has been proven and proven and proven again. As for the 340s and 360s on the range with problems, I have a feeling all of them were being fed a steady diet of 357 mag loads. I have seen a few with cracking at the bottom left of the frame just below the cylinder, right in line with the angle. This seems to be the point of failure.

 As for writing S&W, that would be pretty pointless. Guns explode all the time. The manufactures write it off at bad ammo, reloads, poor user maintenance habits..ect. It took a year of Glocks blowing up and officers making a fuss about it before Glock finally fixed the issue.

 As for autos making some people waste ammo I do agree with you to a point. That is the old wheel gunners catch phrase. No autos are not as reliable as revolvers, but you pay for that less than performance with capacity, ROF and quick reloads.

 I carry an auto for the "what if" situation. I would much rather have 40 9mm rounds in my Sig 229 than the 15 rounds for just my 360. I carry my 360 by it's self when it gets really hot in the summer here. Any other time you will find my 229 on me, along with my 360 on me somewhere. That gives me 45 rounds and two weapons to deal with. Would I use all this ammo during a shooting? I don't think I would. However, it is there if I need it and that makes me feel a little better.

 Everyone needs to carry what makes them comfortable. I don't mind the lighter rounds. If you poled the experts you would find a good number of them have no problem with the lighter rounds them self. As you said before everyone has an axe to grind. If you hang around a police range long enough you will hear all kinds of wild theories and stories about this and that gun or caliber. We wait until they leave and have a pretty good laugh at their expense. More so when all the evidence points to the contrary.

 The .38 got a bad rap a long time ago and has not been able to shake that image no matter what upgrades it has done. The .38 +P round is a pretty snappy round and I know I would hate to be on the receiving end of one.

 You are always going to find bad guys in history that seemed to have super human like strength and it took a ridiculous amount of ammo to bring them down. The problem is most of those situations involved cops with .38s and 9mm..and they got the bad rap. If you look into current police shootings you will see failures in the .40 or .357 Sig. Hell I can even find you reports that say the 125gr JHP .357 round is not safe to use because it does not penetrate well when the bad guy has a heavy jacket on.

 Most of these "reports" come from opinions reached by nut jobs who think that when you hit someone with a bullet they should come off their feet and fly back 10 feet. The other side of these reports are cops, civilians who have a beef or want some fame by telling the world they were right all along. Finally, some where right in the middle, hidden behind and under all that junk knowledge is someones report that is totally true.

 What I am trying to say here is, like in all things in life there are going to be reports to tell you something is bad, followed by a report telling you no it's not, or that it is good. Firearms because of the nature of there use are subject to this back and forth more so than other products.

 I take the reports I hear and read with a grain of salt. I read and study up on what brand of ammo I carry enough that I am comfortable with carrying it. How well the ammo performs for me in a gun fight? Well I hope I never have to find out. However, if the round or my weapon fail me, then God willing I will be here to scream to high heaven about that failure, just as soon as I know that failure wasn't because of an over sight or something stupid I did.

[DREDIOCK]

Is anyone else concerned that traffic is even trying to get up rips butt?

Not really.
I would expect it to be the norm for any man that carpets his garage.
So it doesnt really surprise me.
 

[SIG220]

Damn thats small. In the summer here I carry a little S&W 360PD for concealed carry. I question the reliability of that little .380. It kind of reminds me of a Kel-tec, it looks a lot like one.

 I looked it up while I was writing this, 330$'s thats not to bad for a little pocket pistol.  I watched the video, they sold me. It seems as if reliability is sound. I am going to pick one up. Like the video said, not to replace my 360PD or my Sig 229 9mm I carry the rest of the year, but as my "go to the store and walk the dog" pistol. Thanks for the heads up 220. 

http://www.ruger.com/LCP/Video.html

I'm thinking about one too.  I recently replaced my compact SIG 220 .45 with a smaller S&W M&P .40 compact model.   But the gun still weighs 24 oz unloaded and needs a holster.

This little Ruger would be so easy to just plop into a pocket.

BTW, some retailers are selling it for only $295!!

[SIG220]

sig..  I have a scandium 340 pd like the 38 special you show next to the little ruger.. mine weighs 12 oz and is smaller than the gun you show since I have wood undercover grips on it.   

the main difference between the ruger and it is that mine has 3 times the power of the ruger.   with 125 grain federal hollow points it is a proven manstopper while the .380 has been proven to be lacking in power.  the revolver is reliable with all ammo and the drill for a dud round is.... pull the trigger again.    It has a shrouded hammer and can even be fired from inside of a pocket. 

the drill for making it ready to fire and fire is...  pull the trigger (squeeze for you purists).    I can hit man sized targets at 50 yards with the PD but...

It is a whole new world of recoil.   after it saves your life your hand will sting for a few days.

lazs

There is nothing wrong at all with small S&W revolvers, as they are about as reliable as a gun can be.

You do overstate the .38's power advantage, though.   The most powerful Federal +P .38 ammo only generates 295 ft lbs of energy.   A number of .380 auto loads will generated between 200 and 220 ft lbs of energy.  7 shots from this Ruger ( 220 x 7 =  1,540 ft lbs of total energy ) will thus have more stopping power than 5 shots from the best .38 load ( 295 x 5 = 1,475 ft lbs of total energy   )

In comparison, the ammo in my S&W M&P 40 compact has 463 ft lbs of energy.   10 x 463 = 4,630 ft lbs of total energy for the gun.    My full size Glock 17 has ammo generating 440 ft lbs of energy.   19 x 440 = 8,360 ft lbs of total energy.   And my full size SIG 220 has ammo generating 573 ft lbs of energy.   8 x 573 = 4,584 ft lbs of total energy for the gun.

So both the .38 Special and .380 and these compact guns designed for them are compromises, in my opinion.  You compromise power, for much better concealability that makes carrying the gun so much easier.

And any gun that you don't have with you is pretty useless. 

I did shoot a jackrabbit once with my Glock, using Corbon's 115 gr +P 9mm JHP load.   However, almost all of the rabbit's internal organs are visible in the photo I snapped, so I really cannot post it here.

The jackrabbit was no more than 30 yards away from me when I fired.   The first shot went right over his head.  Windage was perfect, I just shot a little high.  The bullet made a big puff of smoke in the dirt behind the rabbit.  The funny thing is that the stupid jackrabbit just stood there, like nothing had happened.  My second shot hit slightly low ( I overcompensated just a tad ), and it opened up his entire underside.

Another odd thing was that one of the jackrabbit's rear legs kept twitching for about 5 minutes, even though it was dead.  It was really sort of a freaky thing to see.

[SIG220]

I have never had a problem with the small sub rounds like .380 and pocket pistols are just to stop a threat. Even so, seven rounds of .380 going in the bad guys direction is going to get results.

Winchester's Ranger Law Enforcement ammo is not that hard for civilians to buy.   Just look at this comparison of their .380 Auto load with their top +P+ 9mm load:





Yes, this certainly will not match the performance of what this 9mm ammo provides when fired from my Glock 17.  But it is still going to create some nasty wounds.


_____________________________ ______________

[SIG220]

For full size handguns.. anything will do but I like 44 mag and 45 auto and 45 colt.   My cut down ruger redhawk (4") in 44 mag is brutal.. and reliable.   Hydroshocks in the 44 and 45 Kimber.   I have shot animals with these rounds and they work pretty well.

lazs

One of my Dad's neighbors used to hunt Black bear way up in the northern most parts of California, until his hip problems made him give up big game hunting.   The only gun he ever used for Bear hunting was his Colt Gold Cup 1911 .45 Auto.   And he always had it loaded with the Federal 230 gr Hydrashok ammo.   

In the den of his house, he has two beautiful bear rugs, complete with heads, mounted on the walls.   And a third one on the floor of the room.  These were significant sized animals, too.

For Deer and Antelope hunting, he always used a .300 Weatherby Magnum rifle.   So he owned some very powerful rifles.   Yet, for hunting bear at the closest ranges imaginable, he felt well armed with the 230 gr Federal Hydrashoks in his gun.

[SIG220]

Are those 340's really selling for $1100?

No, the Street price is much lower.   You can find dealers selling them for only $700

Still, there are a lot of high quality auto pistols that can still be bought new for under $500

If you want to buy a new .44 magnum revolver, though, that will definitely cost you even more, if you get a Smith and Wesson.

[JBA]

Well I've bit the "bullet" , pun intended,  I singed up for my LTC course. In about 9 weeks I should be licensed to carry.  So I'll soon be PMing you all on gun selection.

[lazs2]

sig..you need to pay attention.

I did not say that 38's were a great round.  I said my 340pd was a great gun and that I carry 125 grain JHP THREE FIVE SEVEN MAGNUM rounds in it.   there is a world of difference.  I don't think you will find a semi auto the same weight and size that packs that much punch.   as for kalifornia black bear?  they are really not too tough.. pretty easy to kill.

BBBB..  I agree.. I hear lot's of stuff from the cops at the range that is pure BS..   from everyone really.. it is fun to fill a gallon milk jug with water and shoot various rounds at it.   .357 and 44 do make a pretty neat demo.

I have no problem with you thinking you need to carry 40 or 50 rounds but I see no point in it for me.. If I need more than 5 or six rounds and a reload..  I need to get out of there...oh.. I hate those speedloaders you show.. the twisty ones?   I like the safariland ones that shoot the rounds into the cyl..  I guess that I just don't want to carry all that extra ammo and weight cause if I need that much then I would rather not have it and be lighter so that I can run to my rifle or shotgun.

I don't have a lot of experience with smith so far as returning broken guns but I would be disapointed if they did not replace a broken one..  ruger and henry have both replaced broken guns.. one was 30 years old... with no questions asked and no charge.

I like to take guys jack hunting.. running jacks.. I probly fire about a tenth of the ammo the semi auto guys do..  sometimes they even get one or so more than me at the end of the day but... the gee wiz bullets in 9mm or 380 or even 45 don't do any better job than my K22 masterpiece on stopping.. the 44 mag is pretty decisive.. .357's always seem to do a good job.

There are reasons people don't hunt deer with .380's or 38's or 9mm or even 45 autos.. it can be done.. I killed a few with a 22 high standard 6".. but.. the shot placement has to be perfect and even then..  far to much chance of failure.  the nazis proved my little walther is a good killer in .32... if the guy is kneeling down in front of a hole.

Now.. if you won't trust the gun on a 100 lb deer or 7 lb jack.....

I love handguns.. shoot em all the time..shot em for 5 decades.. millions of rounds..  but..  they are a lousy substitute for a rifle or shotgun in a fight.. get the most powerful one you can handle and are willing to carry... 

lazs

[BBBB]

I have the safariland ones too. I like them more than the HKS as well. The reality is, I only keep the speed loaders for the house. Like I said most of the time I keep my 360 as a back up, so I don't really carry extra ammo for it.
 However when I only carry the 360 I keep a few Bianchi 580 Speed Strips in my pockets. It holds six rounds, they are a little slower than a true speed loader but they offer better concealability. I can easily carry five speed strips if I wanted to, bringing my round count for my little 360 up to 30 and nobody would be the wiser. Try that with a standard speed loader lol.

 When I do only carry my 360 I typically only carry a pair of speed strips. The reality of it is, if I were caught in a situation where I am having to reload, even with a speed loader or speed strip, chances are I am in over my head anyhow and no amount of pre-planing can help me then. So I try to not worry about carrying far, far less ammo when I am just carrying my 360, than when I carry my 229/360 combo. Like I said having more boom, boom, makers makes me feel a little better, but to each is his own.   

 JBA, if you have any questions you are welcome to ask me or PM me. However, I would advise that what ever advice you receive from me or anyone else, you should do you own research to find out what best fits you, your needs and makes you comfortable. Because at the end of the day, it is your life you are responsible for and it will be in your hands the decisions you make.

 The formula I use when picking a firearm for concealed carry goes as followed. Reliability, performance, concealability, weight, capacity, caliber. Some of those things are give me's. If you are new to firearms and carrying, I would suggest a revolver. What they lack in capacity they more than make up for in reliability, performance and caliber. Most of the offerings from S&W and Taurus USA are also light weight and highly concealable.

 Revolvers are simple. I call them "dummy guns", not to imply that the shooter is a dummy, but to express how simple they are when it comes to high stress shooting situations. Malfunctions with the weapon it's self almost never happen. You are more likely to have a bad round or bad primer. The great thing about a revolver, if it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, squeeze again (notice I used the word "squeeze" for all you purest out there). So you can't go wrong with a wheel gun for a great start up carry weapon. I would strongly suggest you go this route.

 

[lazs2]

I agree... revolvers are dummy guns as you explained it..  simple is good when you are pumped up and shaking.. people shake when scared.. I do.

From decades of revolver shooting I noticed that I always grab two rounds and load em two at a time..  guys have asked why I do that.. it is just somehow easier for me.. it for sure is faster.   I don't carry speedloaders on me either.. nor extra mags for the kimber.. they are in my suitcase tho.    I have ammo at all my friends houses the like guns.. if I want to go shooting I can use my own reloads that are there.   

Wheelguns are old and simple but what they did then they can still do now.  I would rather have a black powder single action than the little ruger .380 even.

lazs