Author Topic: IL2  (Read 4279 times)

Offline Darkish

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Re: IL2
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2008, 02:19:41 PM »
One of the biggest turn off's for me re IL2 was the view system. Once you've flown AH all else pails.

However, there is now a mod that does a pretty good job of 6dof for freetrack/trackir:http://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1006, pretty sweet.

I think Pyro put up a post about the physics resolution of the current FM, something along the lines of twice the fidelity of IL2. Flying the planes in AH feel more predictable, on rails, solid. I personally find the IL2 FM a bit wishywashy. (sry for the technical terms).


Offline BnZ

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Re: IL2
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2008, 02:24:52 PM »
Yes, remember that last episode of "Dogfights", concering operaton Bodenplatt?

A P51 pilot makes a deflection shot on a FW190. He is far inside convergence, he hits both wingsroots on the 190, 3 .50 calibers working on each wing.

This caused the wings of the FW 190 to break and "fold" up, almost like some sort of carrier plane, trapping the unfortunate pilot in his plane! The FWs high-G turn probably did help break the wings off, but still, 3 .50s weakening a wing to that point? That is pretty darn effective. This and countless other accounts of a single good burst doing fatal damage to enemy fighters make me think AHII's take on stopping power and gunnery is more accurate than IL2s.

What I mean about some aspects of IL2s FM being superior, it seems to me that AHII airplanes do not suffer from speed, either in control stiffness or structural damage. I think one of the major reasons that some planes seem so much better in AHII than real life accounts would lead one to believe is that they don't suffer any penalty in rate of turn at practical maneuvering speeds. 110 is a good example of this, I believe I read somewhere that it had a smaller mininum turn radius than the 109, which makes sense. considering the big wing. However, other readings suggest that the controls were just too stiff to have a good turn rate at practical fighting airspeeds, so that it would have had a hard time turning in offense/defense. Or take the 109/P38, 190/P51 dichotomy. In Aces High, the former are pretty much superior to the latter. Yet the latter planes were produced, effective, and feared, so they must have some advantages, one of which I suspect was control effectiveness on the high end of REASONABLE airspeeds.

  AHII 109s for example simply do not suffer signifigantly in control authority until past 400mph IAS or so (after which it quickly enters compression, which I don't understand, I thought 109s actually had a fairly high critical mach number). Having controls that DON'T stiffen up at these monstrous airspeeds isn't really much of an advantage in a dogfight, because the black out limits you to barely turning anyway, and because you have to power dive to get your plane that fast in the first place. Whereas in IL2, I notice a reduction in turn rate in 109s and P38s starting at around 270mph. 190s start to stiffen around 400. Even the might P51s and P47s don't turn real well as you creep close to 500IAS. I have a gut feeling this is more correct than AHIIs take.

Also, in AHII the only aircraft I've ever been able to damage from dive speed (as opposed to pulling Gs) in the 262. Seems like the rest of them can power dive from the stratosphere and never suffer any structural damage until they hit the ground. The net effect of this is that structural strength in a dive also doesn't mean much of an advantage in AH. In IL2, even the Jug starts to shed parts at 560+ or so. The 109 can't turn very well at these high speeds in IL2, but it does SURVIVE them well without compressing and becoming a lawn dart. Taking advantage of superior structural strength in a dive is actually a viable escape tactic in IL2. Once again, from what I've read, I suspect that in this regard, IL2 is closer to reality.

Offline Krusty

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Re: IL2
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2008, 03:20:31 PM »
I believe AH has it modeled so that wings overstress at lower G limits if they are damaged.


Also, historically, [most] planes didn't rip wings off in dives. The pull out ripped them off.

On planes where the controls locked up, they could (and some DID) dive from 20k+ into the deck without falling apart until they impacted.

There was a P-38 pilot that commented he and 2 of his buddies dove to escape some planes, at a high alt, and they locked up and only the guy telling the story just barely pulled up once they hit the denser air at low alts. His 2 wingmen impacted on either side of him.

If high speed dives in IL2 shed wings, that's most likely wrong.


One of my beefs with IL2 is that it's subjective to the whim of Oleg, and he caters to the loudest folks on the forums. I used to read the forums, back when I was interested. He'd change engine powers, performance, etc, based on the biggest whines. He made 50cals weak, then made them so strong any burst could kill, because folks complained about their weakness. Then he made them weak again because folks complained they were too strong!

At least HTC has a set policy of modeling things based off of realistic strengths and weaknesses. Whether they do this or not (I won't get into the debate) they have a policy and stick to it.

Oleg just changes whatever the masses want, from my observations. Not a good policy in a supposedly realistic flight sim.

Offline moot

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Re: IL2
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2008, 03:38:07 PM »
There's quite a few AH planes that lose parts from high speed.  Off the top of my head, the 110 and A20 lose elevators somewhere around 400IAS, the Ki84 loses (I think) its rudder about halfway past 400... Etc.

The truly better thing about Il2 is the unevenness of air.  Planes will jitter around at high speed, which doesn't happen at all in AH's perfectly still and homogeneous air..
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Offline BnZ

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Re: IL2
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2008, 03:44:08 PM »
They don't loose wings so much as control surfaces start fluttering and shake off...

Offline Wotan

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Re: IL2
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2008, 03:48:21 PM »
Word to the wise - if you ask Krusty what time it is - make sure you check for yourself because his answer will always be wrong.

I have been inside and out of the Il-2 'FM's' and 'DM's' and everything Krusty had posted is 100% incorrect - just like everything else he posts on these forums. That's not a personal attack anyone can search his posts.

Both AH and Il-2 are great games. Fly the one you want. However, just as an observation, anyone who would come into other game forum and complain about a game they really have no idea about is just silly. Whenever you hear 'The FM feels better in XXX' you know you are dealing with someone who has no idea what he is talking about.

Wotan


Offline moot

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Re: IL2
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2008, 03:57:28 PM »
Wotan, do you mean flying around without a vert stab almost like nothing happened is right?  And compared to AH, the planes in Il2 do act negligibly different once they're near the edge and at a high aoa.  Flying a P39 and a 109, Zeke and P38, the differences are really small in the above conditions.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: IL2
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2008, 03:58:15 PM »
*shrug* Own and play both regularly, just pointing out their relative strengths and weaknesses is all. Think it is a shame a great sim like IL2 is near ruined by 3 big flaws, annoying view system, the ridiculously bad stability, and the bizarre impotence of the guns, esp. .50 cals.

The fantasy would be one game that combines the best features of both.


Word to the wise - if you ask Krusty what time it is - make sure you check for yourself because his answer will always be wrong.

I have been inside and out of the Il-2 'FM's' and 'DM's' and everything Krusty had posted is 100% incorrect - just like everything else he posts on these forums. That's not a personal attack anyone can search his posts.

Both AH and Il-2 are great games. Fly the one you want. However, just as an observation, anyone who would come into other game forum and complain about a game they really have no idea about is just silly. Whenever you hear 'The FM feels better in XXX' you know you are dealing with someone who has no idea what he is talking about.

Wotan



Offline Krusty

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Re: IL2
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2008, 04:51:38 PM »
Lovely slanderous and personal attack there, Wotan. Way to be a beacon of the community....  :huh


Not to mention insulting everybody in this entire thread that's even remotely expressed an opinion about either game in comparison to each other.


Yeah, real nice.

Offline Darkish

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Re: IL2
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2008, 06:46:10 PM »
. Whenever you hear 'The FM feels better in XXX' you know you are dealing with someone who has no idea what he is talking about.

Wotan



bollocks. Feeling something is a discription that encompases all the senses. If something feels wrong then something is broken.

Don't underestimate the innate understanding of physics that humans have. It's hardwired into us.  I mean do the math to throw a rolled up piece of paper into a bin 15ft away.

Offline Gianlupo

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Re: IL2
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2008, 08:16:01 PM »
BnZ, planes in AH do suffer loss of performance in rate of turn with speed... just try to fly a Zeke or a Hayate and you'll see... perhaps it's less noticeable in some plane than in others, but they do suffer it and you can see it.

And they suffer damage from high speed diving, as m00t pointed out. (Btw, m00t, Frank usually lose its elevators when diving beyond 450 mph... I knew that too well........ :D)
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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: IL2
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2008, 08:44:13 PM »
Btw, BnZ,

The 109 doesn't compress in our game under 20K until past around 460 mph. What you're experiencing is really high speed of air over the elevators which make it hard for you to use them effectively. Not unlike the Spitfire's tendency to lose aileron authority or the P-38G/J's loss of aileron authority at high speeds. It's not compression, it's just too much air speed over the surfaces. 
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Offline ImMoreBetter

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Re: IL2
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2008, 12:31:22 AM »
It is accepted that the lack of API/APIT rounds on the .50's make them less powerful than they should be in IL2.

Though the incendiary concept is porked, .50's rarely create structural damage on wing-shedding scale. They are bullets, not cannon rounds.

Offline Krusty

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Re: IL2
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2008, 12:35:39 AM »
Check out the "Wings" thread, and watch the combat footage of 190s. The 190 is a tough plane. Stronger than the 109 and able to take more damage (better suited to ground attack). 50cal bursts blow them to pieces. Wings fluttering off, complete explosions.

It only takes a weak point in a piece of load-bearing metal to crack and split, especially at high speeds, high Gs, high buffet, high vibration. Even microscopic flaws in turbine blades can make them shatter and destroy the engine when in use.

So a .50cal bullet punching through over an inch of solid steel may not blow that steel up, but that steel can't hold the weight it could BEFORE the hole was punched in it. A couple more holes... and... well the steel can't hold the weight of the wing, let alone the air pressure, the vibrations from the engine, and all that stuff airplanes are put through.

Offline BnZ

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Re: IL2
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2008, 12:56:53 AM »
Okay, I'll hone to not testing the Japanese stuff in dives.

But the point remains that MOST planes in AH can dive without fear of structural damage. And more importantly, the loss of control authority in AHII happens at speeds so fast that it doesn't really consitute a huge disadvantage for a P38 or a 109 in a dogfight, except perhaps the frustration of watching a con dive away. Whereas if you were to fight a PonyV109 duel with IL2's flight model, if the 109 and Pony merged both going 300+mph IAS, the Pony would  have a much higher turn rate and gain angles initially. Not having a Mustang or a Messerschmidt parked outside the house, I can't with honesty say which modeling is more accurate. But the difference is interesting, and I wonder which one is more believable.