German Panther

[Urchin]

I found the original post...

From Official Army After Action Reports describing the battle at St. Vith, Belgium, during the Battle of The Bulge:

"While the northern and eastern flanks had been heavily engaged, the northeastern sector (Troop A, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron; Company A, 38th Armored Infantry Battalion; Troop E, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron) had been rather quiet. The only excitement there had been when an M8 armored car from Troop B destroyed a (King) Tiger tank.

The armored car had been in a concealed position near the boundary of Troop 3, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron and Company A, 38th Armored Infantry Battalion, when the Tiger approached the lines at right angles to move along a trail in front of the main line of resistance. As the tank passed the armored car, the latter slipped out of position and started up the trail behind the Tiger, accelerating in an attempt to close. At the same moment the German tank commander saw the M8, and started traversing his gun to bear on it. It was a race between the Americans, who were attempting to close so that their 37-mm gun would be effective on the Tiger's thin rear armor, and the Germans, who were desperately striving to bring their 88 to bear. Rapidly, the M8 closed to 25 yards and quickly pumped in three rounds; the lumbering Tiger stopped and shuddered; there was a muffled explosion, followed by flames which billowed out of the turret and engine ports, after which the armored car returned to its position."

The document can be found at: http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/p4013coll8&CISOPTR=362&filename=351.pdf

See page 12.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing -

How likely do you think this is?  I mean.. the Tiger had armor thick enough everywhere to keep a 76mm gun from penetrating at any distance (the T-34/76's main gun), why would the King Tiger have armor thin enough that a 37mm round could get through?

[angelsandair]

Probably faulty production. The tank probably hit the engine and it caught on fire and exploded or instantly exploded.

[straffo]

Back from Easter vacation.

I see a lot of comments here that are all valid since we are talking about hypotheticals and what we'd "put out money on". However I must address AquaShrimp's "hundred miles a day" statement. The distance between Paris, France and Berlin, Germany is 544 miles. It took the western Allies from June 6th 1944 (D-Day) to May 8th 1945 (VE-Day) to cover that distance. 11 months ... and they didn't even reach Berlin. If they had they would have covered 1.6 miles per day.

I think you're off by 2.5 months ,Paris was liberated August 25 1944

[FrodeMk3]

Widewing -

How likely do you think this is?  I mean.. the Tiger had armor thick enough everywhere to keep a 76mm gun from penetrating at any distance (the T-34/76's main gun), why would the King Tiger have armor thin enough that a 37mm round could get through?

Urchin, the rear armor would be the thinnest; and the 37mm AP would have it's max armor penetration at the ranges quoted. Plus, you have things' like access doors, ventilation grates, etc. which would be weaknesses' in the protection scheme of the vehicles' armor.

(EDIT:) A King Tiger, as in a Tiger II? Achtung!Panzer's website listed the rear armor thickness at 80mm's, which the 37 would most likely not penetrate at any range. Maybe it was a regular Tiger?

[Bronk]

Urchin, the rear armor would be the thinnest; and the 37mm AP would have it's max armor penetration at the ranges quoted. Plus, you have things' like access doors, ventilation grates, etc. which would be weaknesses' in the protection scheme of the vehicles' armor.

(EDIT:) A King Tiger, as in a Tiger II? Achtung!Panzer's website listed the rear armor thickness at 80mm's, which the 37 would most likely not penetrate at any range. Maybe it was a regular Tiger?

Faulty production of the armor.

[MiloMorai]

The Panther G had better frontal armor than the Tiger I, and the Panther's side armor was of the same thickness as the Sherman's frontal hull armor. My money is still on the Panthers.

It was?

link to armour, http://www.onwar.com/tanks/index.htm

Please recheck your claim.

[MiloMorai]

The only problem I can see with the German tanks was lack of supplies and air cover. More Panther and Tiger were killed from air attack than from tank on tank battles. Alot of German tanks in Normandy were either tracked, ran out of fuel, or simply broke down. In the Alsce pocket where they lost most of their tanks in France it was aerial bombing and running out of fuel.

Myth. Many claims were made but these, when actual wrecks were inspected, were not confirmed as air kills.

[StugIII]

lets just say I if you agree that the panther should be added to the game say if it should be perked and thne say what its adversary should be. I say I!!!

[BigPlay]

Yeah bet on the Panther. Saw a show on History or Discovery or Military channel about tank battles in France after D-Day. There was a British M4 commander on and was talking about how whole companies of Shermans were being killed before they could get close enough to be effective. Generally the tactic I heard mentioned the most was a platoon of Shermans occupying the attention of whatever tank(Panther or Tiger) while another platoon of Shermans would flank the enemy tank and kill it with close flank shots that would penetrate the side or rear armor. The only problem I can see with the German tanks was lack of supplies and air cover. More Panther and Tiger were killed from air attack than from tank on tank battles. Alot of German tanks in Normandy were either tracked, ran out of fuel, or simply broke down. In the Alsce pocket where they lost most of their tanks in France it was aerial bombing and running out of fuel.

I think your referring to the Falaise (not spelled correct) massacre. They were decimated by attack planes caught in daylight. It's been awhile since I read about it but I believe over 200 German tanks were destroyed there.

[FrodeMk3]

It was?

link to armour, http://www.onwar.com/tanks/index.htm

Please recheck your claim.

The Tiger's armor was thicker, but vertical; Almost all shot's were solid hits. The Panthers' armor had enough sloping to cause a number of rounds' to bounce off, without imparting much in the way of damage.

[BigPlay]

AS for the Panther vs. Sherman/T34 debate: I remember the tour guide at Berlin's war museum, an old Tiger commander (also saw him on Discovery Channel some time ago). He said, and I paraphrase: "The Tiger was a match for ten T34's ... The problem was there were always twelve of them!"

The Panther G had better frontal armor than the Tiger I, and the Panther's side armor was of the same thickness as the Sherman's frontal hull armor. My money is still on the Panthers.

Panther's frontal armor was 80mm the Tigers was 100mm although the panthers was sloped and one piece rolled steel it probably was close. The gun mantlets were 10mm apart, 100 panther, 110 Tiger

[Grendel]

I think your referring to the Falaise (not spelled correct) massacre. They were decimated by attack planes caught in daylight. It's been awhile since I read about it but I believe over 200 German tanks were destroyed there.

No there wasnt.

Cutpaste from one message of mine elsewhere on same topic:

Medium / heavy tanks were NOT destroyed by .50s. End of discussion.

Even more, few tanks were destroyed from aerial attack at all.

British War Office analysis of 233 destroyed Panther tanks in 1944 revealed, that only 14 of those were destroyed by aerial attack. 11 with rockets, 3 with cannons.

During battle of Mortrain 7-10. August RAF and USAAF air forces claimed destruction of 252 German tanks destroyed. Germans only had 177 tanks and tank destroyers in that battle. Of those, 46 were lost. Nine were destroyed by aerial attacks. Seven by rockets, two by bombs.

During the German retreat to Seine, 388 AFVs were destroyed and examined. Of those only 13 were destroyed by aerial attack.

During the battle of Ardennes, of 101 destroyed AFVs only seven was destroyed by aerial attack. Claims were for 90.

During WHOLE Normandy campaign only about 100 tanks were destroyed to Allied air attacks. NONE of those were destroyed by .50s.

And this number from combination of British and American battlefield studies. No Germans tanks were destroyed by .50s during the battle of Normandy, German retreat or during battle of Ardennes.

[Lumpy]

I think you're off by 2.5 months ,Paris was liberated August 25 1944

I didn't say Paris was liberated June 6th.

[Bronk]

I didn't say Paris was liberated June 6th.

Then why mention...

Back from Easter vacation.
The distance between Paris, France and Berlin, Germany is 544 miles.

Why not state the distance from the Normandy coast to Berlin then... hmmm?

[Lumpy]

@ Milo and BigPlay:


Tiger front armour
Turret: 100mm@82� = 101mm@90�
Mantlet: (up to) 110mm@90�
Superstructure: 100mm@80� = 101mm@90�
Hull: 100mm@66� = 109mm@90�


Panther front armour
Turret: 110mm@79� = 112mm@90�
Mantlet: 100mm@round
Superstructure: 80mm@35� = 139mm@90�
Hull: 60mm@35� = 105mm@90�


Clearly the Panther has the better frontal armour.


Panther side armour vs Sherman front.

Panther 50mm@60� = 58mm@90�
Sherman 51mm@34� = 91mm@90�

So in millimetres the Panther's side armour is only one millimetre short of the Sherman's front armour, but calculated for slope gives the Sherman better protection.


Sherman side armour for comparison: 38mm@90�