German Panther

[botkins]

Another vehicle we need is the German Panther. Yes it has the same size gun as the panzer but its armor is thicker and was sloped(atleast what ive seen and read about).It just looks like a very solid tank to me and i think it would be awsome to have on AH.

-botkins

[Pannono]

we got a "starter of threads on 1st post" here!

[Bodhi]

I also seem to remember that although the Panther's gun's projectile was the same diameter, it actually had a larger powder charge, and the barrel was longer.  That made the velocity higher and allowed better penetration.

[AquaShrimp]

Yeah, the Panther had a different 75mm cannon than the earlier Panzers.  In fact, the Panther's high velocity 75mm could actually penetrate more armor than the Tiger's 88mm.

The Panther suffered the same problems as all the heavy German tanks- Suspension and transmission prone to wearing out quickly, underpowered engine, too few built.  But of course it had superior armor, optics, and firepower.

[StugIII]

those Germans sure are smart, them and they're big fancy tanks, only problem they gave there contracts to companies that were used to producing small numbers, instead of say the BMW plant or others.

[Lumpy]

those Germans sure are smart, them and they're big fancy tanks, only problem they gave there contracts to companies that were used to producing small numbers, instead of say the BMW plant or others.

[sarcasm]Yes because MAN AG is known to only produce small numbers of vehicles.[/sarcasm]

Get a clue please.

[StugIII]

well most often this happened like jobs going to company's that would produce ship yard cranes example 4 a month and the Germans needed bigger, overall the big thing was hat the Germans tanks were to over engineered and to hard to produce for anyone

[Lumpy]

Learn spelling and punctuation. Then read some history books. Then post. Pretty please with sugar on top.

The initial production target was 250 tanks per month at MAN. This was increased to 600 per month in January 1943. Despite determined efforts this figure was never reached due to disruption by Allied bombing, manufacturing bottlenecks, and other difficulties. Production in 1943 averaged 148 per month. In 1944, it averaged 315 a month (3,777 having been built that year), peaking with 380 in July and ending around the end of March 1945, with at least 6,000 built in total. Strength peaked on September 1, 1944 at 2,304 tanks, but that same month a record number of 692 tanks were reported lost (source: T.L. Jentz (1999) Die deutsche Panzertruppe Band 2).

If the 6,000 Panthers built were pitted against the 50,000 Shermans made during WWII I would put my money on the Panthers. A Panther was easily a match for 10 Shermans (Firefly excluded) or T-34's on the battlefield. With superior gun and optics and almost impervious armor, the Panther was the finest tank of the war.

[Tony Williams]

If the 6,000 Panthers built were pitted against the 50,000 Shermans made during WWII I would put my money on the Panthers. A Panther was easily a match for 10 Shermans (Firefly excluded) or T-34's on the battlefield. With superior gun and optics and almost impervious armor, the Panther was the finest tank of the war.

The Panther had good frontal armour, but nothing special at the sides. With crews of equal quality, I'd put my money on the Shermans; with a 10:1 advantage, some could work around to the side while others were distracting the Panther at the front. I suspect that the actual exchange rate would be more like 3:1.

As a matter of interest, the Panther's 75mm gun was about as effective as the Sherman Firefly's 17 pdr - when the 17 pdr was using standard APCBC ammo. When the Firefly used APDS its penetration was much superior, although accuracy went down.

[Widewing]

If the 6,000 Panthers built were pitted against the 50,000 Shermans made during WWII I would put my money on the Panthers. A Panther was easily a match for 10 Shermans (Firefly excluded) or T-34's on the battlefield. With superior gun and optics and almost impervious armor, the Panther was the finest tank of the war.

I have a post war US Army document that states something startling. M18 Hellcats were credited with killing 134 Panthers for the loss of 17 M18s in exchange. Indeed, the M1 76mm shooting HVAP was generally lethal for a Panther at any angle. When the M36 showed up in the fall of 1944, the US had a TD that could kill anything it might encounter. The Sherman was an infantry support tank, not designed specifically to fight other tanks. That role was to filled by Tank Destroyers (that was the theory, and the theory was obviously flawed). Even though 76mm Shermans gradually arrived in the ETO and Italy, they rarely had access to HVAP ammo. Usually, they would have to horse trade with supply personnel or TD units to get few rounds.

Last year, I posted a portion of a report where an M8 armored car destroyed a King Tiger with a few 37mm rounds. At 50 yards, the 37mm could easily penetrate the rear armor of the Tiger. In this case, the M8 cornered the behemoth on a narrow road and got off several rounds at  close range before the Tiger could get its turret around. Tiger go boom....

You get no guarantees in combat. Even the biggest, baddest tanks have weaknesses that can be exploited. 

My regards,

Widewing

[SD67]

WW
I can just imagine the whines if someone here lost a Tiger to an M8

OMFG WTF HAX!!!!!1!1one!!!one

[Pannono]

OMG HAXOR!!!! NO WEY U CCAN KILLA TIGER WITHA M8  U R A HAXOR!!!! [sic]
lol can imagine it now

[FrodeMk3]

Learn spelling and punctuation. Then read some history books. Then post. Pretty please with sugar on top.

The initial production target was 250 tanks per month at MAN. This was increased to 600 per month in January 1943. Despite determined efforts this figure was never reached due to disruption by Allied bombing, manufacturing bottlenecks, and other difficulties. Production in 1943 averaged 148 per month. In 1944, it averaged 315 a month (3,777 having been built that year), peaking with 380 in July and ending around the end of March 1945, with at least 6,000 built in total. Strength peaked on September 1, 1944 at 2,304 tanks, but that same month a record number of 692 tanks were reported lost (source: T.L. Jentz (1999) Die deutsche Panzertruppe Band 2).

If the 6,000 Panthers built were pitted against the 50,000 Shermans made during WWII I would put my money on the Panthers. A Panther was easily a match for 10 Shermans (Firefly excluded) or T-34's on the battlefield. With superior gun and optics and almost impervious armor, the Panther was the finest tank of the war.

Except they weren't just facing 50,000 Shermans; Many Panthers' were sent east to stem the T-34 horde. Which is what the Panther was origanally designed to counter, anyway.

[Widewing]

I found the original post...

From Official Army After Action Reports describing the battle at St. Vith, Belgium, during the Battle of The Bulge:

"While the northern and eastern flanks had been heavily engaged, the northeastern sector (Troop A, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron; Company A, 38th Armored Infantry Battalion; Troop E, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron) had been rather quiet. The only excitement there had been when an M8 armored car from Troop B destroyed a (King) Tiger tank.

The armored car had been in a concealed position near the boundary of Troop 3, 87th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron and Company A, 38th Armored Infantry Battalion, when the Tiger approached the lines at right angles to move along a trail in front of the main line of resistance. As the tank passed the armored car, the latter slipped out of position and started up the trail behind the Tiger, accelerating in an attempt to close. At the same moment the German tank commander saw the M8, and started traversing his gun to bear on it. It was a race between the Americans, who were attempting to close so that their 37-mm gun would be effective on the Tiger's thin rear armor, and the Germans, who were desperately striving to bring their 88 to bear. Rapidly, the M8 closed to 25 yards and quickly pumped in three rounds; the lumbering Tiger stopped and shuddered; there was a muffled explosion, followed by flames which billowed out of the turret and engine ports, after which the armored car returned to its position."

The document can be found at: http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/p4013coll8&CISOPTR=362&filename=351.pdf

See page 12.

My regards,

Widewing

[USRanger]

That's awesome.  Balls of steel there.