Author Topic: You want realism....No really???  (Read 2212 times)

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2008, 03:20:54 AM »
There is "realism" and there are "realism annoyances" - often, a very thin line separates them.

Realism in how things operate is a good thing, while realism in how things are being operated is nothing but a nuisance. The perfect example perhaps is HTC's choice to model non-realistic cockpits. The instruments are not at their correct position and most of them do not look like they did in the real thing. However, they do allow you to read them clearly and transition between planes without converting meters into feet. In all flight simulators that used historical accurate cockpits I ended up using a HUD because I couldn't effectively read the instruments. Which is more realistic?

Having to click many buttons on a non-historical keyboard to perform some mundane operation does not add to realism. If it offered some added tactical value, then perhaps yes.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15570
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2008, 06:11:46 PM »
Friend Brooke..


 When someone comes in and reminds us, "HTC is only 7 people, they don't have the time" that sucks the fun and life out of these wonderfully imaginitve discussions :D :D

 

You are absolutely right -- and point noted! :)

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2008, 12:31:36 AM »
Brooke:

You say using "complex" settings would give you a bit more power than "easy" settings....

But HTC isn't going to do something that is basically an exploit to get more power. There were a few bugs in IL2 some time back where folks were over boosting their engines with custom engine settings, and it totally messed up the "accurate" performance of the craft.

HTC isn't going to introduce something that's either 1) a handicap to half the players or 2) a secret fight-winning benefit for the other half.

The entire feel of AH I get is that the planes are EQUAL no matter who's in 'em. It's how you use 'em that determines the kill. Certain planes are better, sure, but when a P51 goes up against a P51 you know for sure that they both have the same max power.

Having 1 109K be faster than another 109K at the exact same conditions, because the player over boosted the engine, throws the entire idea of "standard" performance out the window, IMO.

IF any complex engine handling is included, it must not give any benefit over the old system, so that a fight is still a fair fight. However, if it gives no benefit, and takes more time to do, almost nobody will use it.

The only other alternative is HTC changing engine management across-the-board, no options, "this is how it is now" -- and I don't see that happening anytime in our lifetimes.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2008, 01:14:54 PM »
Quote
But HTC isn't going to do something that is basically an exploit to get more power. There were a few bugs in IL2 some time back where folks were over boosting their engines with custom engine settings, and it totally messed up the "accurate" performance of the craft.

 In principle, I agree with this.


Quote
HTC isn't going to introduce something that's either 1) a handicap to half the players or 2) a secret fight-winning benefit for the other half.

 However, the suggestion for "CEM" and similar concepts is neither 1) nor 2).


Quote
The entire feel of AH I get is that the planes are EQUAL no matter who's in 'em. It's how you use 'em that determines the kill. Certain planes are better, sure, but when a P51 goes up against a P51 you know for sure that they both have the same max power.

 The point is, internal management techincally qualifies as "how you use 'em". When you think about it, there's no reason why this "how one uses it" should only be limited by your stick and throttle.


Quote
Having 1 109K be faster than another 109K at the exact same conditions, because the player over boosted the engine, throws the entire idea of "standard" performance out the window, IMO.

 This is a conceptual error, since when one K-4 faster than the other, (ie. as in overboosting) its not at the exact same condition.

 The problem with IL-2 was that a certain flight set/equiment allowed the player to manually over-rev the engine over the normal flight conditions and keep it just under the failing point - which in reality the complications of internal management would make it practically impossible under combat conditions. In reality, these functions were considered for only special situations, such as taking off very short airstrips. This problem comes from the fact that 1C:Maddox believes in the "technical realism" perspective, rather than the "situational realism" persepctive as HTC does.

 However, that does not mean the said functions of the game cannot be rendered differently, to prevent exploits = which I have utter faith in if HTC would ever consider it.


Quote
IF any complex engine handling is included, it must not give any benefit over the old system, so that a fight is still a fair fight. However, if it gives no benefit, and takes more time to do, almost nobody will use it.

 About half true.

 It is true that if a CEM is introduced that it won't make the planes "better" in anyway. However, what one can expect is a certain minor factor involved in general management which different level of experience might influence as to the outcome of combat.

 For example, in HTC's rendition of the La-7, it would have to manually switch the supercharger to 2nd gear at 15k and over. This is just one key(when toggled), or two keys, if rendered "UP/DOWN" like the flaps. However, in the heat of battle it is entirely possible that a lesser pilot might forget to switch the superchargers, or engage them too late - which would lead to a decrease in performance until the supercharger is set correctly.

 Imagine that an La-7 is trying to get away from an enemy plane close behind by a shallow climb around 14k - a better experienced pilot would not forget when to engage the 2nd gear to keep the speed/climb performance at optimum levels. A lesser pilot may not recognize the optimum point, and he might engage the SC too early or too late - in which case he'd be caught by the chasing plane due to a temporary decline in speed/climb.

 
 Now, is this too difficult? Say, how much more difficult is it, when compared to using X notches of flap during combat? People learn optimum levels of flap usage with experience, and often the knowledge of just when exactly to use flaps by how much can influence the outcome of the battle. This kind of knowledge is in the sanctum of veterans. How many people complain that "this is too difficult for a n00b to learn"? I don't think I've ever seen someone mention, "this flap usage thingy is just to damned difficult for most n00bs. It is excessive realism."
 
 As a matter of fact, veterans actually love this kind of difficuly and learning curve.

 So, would anyone be willing to say "I have to push one key to change SC of the La-7 at 15k alt" is something so difficult as to be considered excessive and annoying amount of tedious realism? Why should this be considered any more difficult and excessive than the more obscure, arcane knowledge of "using flaps right"?


 This, is what the CEM can offer to AH.

 A minor, generic, simplified rendition of general engine management that somewhat influences how optimum your plane flies. It doesn't make the planes perform better. What it does, is it may allow the planes to perform a bit differently according to knowledge and experience - as an experienced pilot will manage it better and his plane will fly more optimum, whereas an unexperienced piot MIGHT mismanage it, and suffer some amount of penalties from it. Sometimes, under rare/extreme circumstances, this might damage their plane with mismanagement.

 Ofcourse, AH players have this wierd tendency to think n00bs are impossibly stupid, and will have so much trouble with "management" that they cannot possibly learn it, will always mismanage their plane and damage it, and then just give up. However, I've seen the same kind of impossibly stupid people in IL-2 too. They learn and adapt.


 ...

 It is nothing different from how people already fly their plane in AH2 - a good pilot moves his plane smoothly, E-efficiently. A bad pilot pushes his plane roughly, and might bleed a lot of E here and there. The only difference is this management is internal, using push of buttons, whereas what we are currently doing is external, using the stick.

 
Quote
The only other alternative is HTC changing engine management across-the-board, no options, "this is how it is now" -- and I don't see that happening anytime in our lifetimes.

 I thought the very same thing about great many things.

 HTC said that they didn't consider a historic cockpit useful, and they preferred the generic cockpit for a number of reasons. Every suggestion went upon deaf ears, and I thought we'd never see historic cockpits. But then poof! With the Ki-84, HTC surprised us with their drastic change of positions, with a very clever, visual compromise.

 So I'm keeping my hopes up. They may seem quiet, but HTC is constantly monitoring, and thinking stuff through.


 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:21:23 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15570
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2008, 01:35:27 AM »
Brooke:

You say using "complex" settings would give you a bit more power than "easy" settings....

But HTC isn't going to do something that is basically an exploit to get more power.

What I mean is that, just like when users use the stall limiter and then can't pull as much angle of attack as if you have stall limiter turned off, it would be very easy to have it such that, with realistic engine management enabled, you get (assuming you optimally adjust your settings) up to N HP, but if you use "easy-mode" engine management, you get 0.95 * N HP (or 0.98 * N, or 0.99 * N, or whatever would be decided as the slight underperformance).

No one complains that people who turn off the stall limiter can pull more AoA.  After brief adjustment, my guess is that folks likewise would not complain that using realistic engine management allows you to get max power out of the engine while easy mode gives you slightly less.  (And to be clear, what I mean by "max power" is max power available at given altitude and airspeed by having your engine settings set correctly and optimally -- i.e., the best power you could get with the correct settings under those conditions, settings that easy mode would set for you, just slightly less expertly than perfect.)

I prefer more realism to the planes where it can be had as Aces High evolves.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 01:47:07 AM by Brooke »