Author Topic: My initial impressions flying the P-39s  (Read 1875 times)

Offline Widewing

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My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« on: March 20, 2008, 05:57:51 PM »
My initial impressions from flying the new P-39s.

I’ll begin with the P-39Q as it will be the more popular of the two new editions.

Let me begin by saying that I find to speed curve to be odd. Typically, for the P-39Q using WEP, critical altitude (AKA Full Throttle Height) should occur at 9,700 feet. The current release offers a critical altitude right around 12,000 feet. This conforms to the MIL power critical altitude rather than WEP. Not a big issue, but it does move the P-39Q’s sweet spot up and generally out of the normal combat altitudes found in Aces High.

All performance numbers reflect not taking the under-wing gun pods.

When at critical altitude (12K), the P-39Q can attain 382 mph. I was expecting about 388 mph at 9,700 feet, but the best I could get was 374 mph at that height. Speed at 10k is 375 mph, which is competitive with most fighters, and very good for a middle 1942 vintage aircraft. While I didn’t test with gun pods installed, I expect about a 6 mph loss associated with the increased drag.

Max speed at sea level was measured at 329 mph.

Acceleration is good for a mid war fighter. Measured from 150 mph to 250 mph at sea level, the P-39Q accelerates faster than the P-51B and is only slightly inferior to the P-51D and Yak-9U over this speed range. While not stunning by any standard, acceleration is pretty good and close to what I had previously calculated.

Climb is also quite respectable. Beginning from a stop on a runway, the P-39Q easily beats the P-51D and F4U-1A to 5,000 feet. It lags behind the Yak-9U by about 300 feet (the Yak passes 5,000 ft just as the P-39Q reaches 4,700 ft).

Dive testing was done on both types. Air spawning at 30,000 feet, the gear was pulled up and the engine was started. Nosing over at full power, the P-39s were both dived to max speed. Both attained speeds of at least 595 mph. Buffeting began at approximately Mach 0.75 and full lock-up at occurred at Mach 0.80, which required elevator trimming to pull out of the dive. These numbers are virtually identical to the F4Us. Unlike the Corsairs, there is a risk of shredding the ailerons as you approach 600 mph. This happened during one of four test dives.

Now we get into more subjective performance characteristics.

Turn radius was measured in terms of time required to complete an average circle. I established a constant left-hand turn at 500 feet ASL. I then recorded the total time over three consecutive turns while monitoring air speed via E6B.

The average time for a clean airframe (no flaps) was 17.55 seconds at 154 mph.

Flown against an F4U-1 in a constant left lufbery, the P-39Q quickly overtakes the Corsair. One notch of flaps by both tightens up the circle and the F4U gains parity. Two notches by both and the F4U begins to close on the P-39. Should the P-39 add more flaps, little is gained. It cannot hope to sustain a flaps-out turn fight with the F4U. Like some other fighters, the P-39’s flaps are not designed for maneuver combat. They generate considerable drag without the huge lift component that the F4U flaps provide. I do not recommend using more than 1 or 2 notches of flaps dogfighting in the P-39s. This is even more critical for the P-39D, which has 270 hp less than the P-39Q. There is simply not enough power to overcome the huge drag associated with full flaps. Avoid using a lot of flaps to furball as the gains are more than offset by the losses.

Adding to this issue is a tendency for the P-39s to dip the inside wing almost immediately beyond entering stall buffet. Roll stability at high AoA with flaps out is marginal. It is possible to get into a violent spin that requires several thousand feet to recover from.

Another factor is highly sensitive elevators. You must be smooth with elevator inputs as they are very powerful or you will experience pilot induced nose bounce.

Overall handling is not unusual or inferior. In some regimes, it is simply different from what the average pilot is used to. Different isn’t necessarily bad, nor is a bit of instability, if you can harness it to and use it to enhance maneuverability. It takes stick time to do that. For most players, the P-39s will thought of as being somewhat tricky to fly at the limits.

Outward vision is generally good, being outstanding over the nose. Rear vision is marginal with the roll-over structure creating a tunnel-like view to the rear.

Ground handling is among the best, and landing is very easy without any drama whatsoever. There is a bug in auto-takeoff that causes the rudder to oscillate back and forth, inducing snaking on the takeoff run. Manually taking off is easy, but requires considerable rudder to offset torque.

Sitting in the runway, apply full power and the P-39Q accelerates smartly, getting airborne after a very short run.

Many will find the guns a bit disconcerting as the mixed battery offers substantially varied ballistics. The best gun package is probably the Hispano set-up in the P-39D. Adding the under-wing guns to the P-39Q adds considerable firepower. However, the performance trade-off will cause some folks to go with the less capable paired MGs/37mm combination.

One issue with the P-39 is that the guns shoot  higher than the gunsight. You quickly learn to compensate, but this needs to be corrected.

Taken as a whole, the P-39Q will find a following, especially in the mid war arena where it is very competitive. In the late war arenas, it will have a tougher time. Nonetheless, it will be competitive enough to entice players to fly it.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 08:32:04 PM »
Cool writeup Widewing!

How would you compare it to the Bf109G6 and the G2.

Grunz

Offline cbizkit

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 11:03:35 PM »
The average time for a clean airframe (no flaps) was 17.55 seconds at 154 mph.

One issue with the P-39 is that the guns shoot  higher than the gunsight. You quickly learn to compensate, but this needs to be corrected.
Thanks for the writeup Widewing, your testing is really a great value to those of us interested in the detail. Really appreciate your efforts.

Assuming my calcs are right, that makes the flaps up turn radius around 630ft and about 20.5 degrees per second. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm on vicodin!)

I also noticed the rounds going over the pipper but was thinking it was just the odd convergence I was using or that I was crazy, thanks for clearing that up.
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Offline angelsandair

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2008, 11:12:21 PM »
Widewing, you said it right on. The day the P-39 came out, when you dove and recovered on a slight g turn, did you instantly black out. It happens every now and then but not as much though.  :salute

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Offline Widewing

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 10:35:20 AM »
Cool writeup Widewing!

How would you compare it to the Bf109G6 and the G2.

Grunz

I think it compares favorably with its contemporaries. I took my test data and morphed it into the graphs on DokGonzo's website to produce a comparison. There's no doubt that we're dealing with a mid-war fighter, but it is a good one, especially at low level. People can draw some conclusions based upon the data.

Here's the grafted graphs...



My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:40:47 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Bodhi

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 10:44:35 AM »
thanks for the write up WW, very informative.
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Offline Nimrod45

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 10:45:10 AM »
How does the gun pods affect manueverability in the Q model.

Offline Krusty

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 10:53:05 AM »
It's a little more sluggish. I find the convergence an issue, as they have more ammo than the nose guns so your last 200 rounds (100 rpg) are really wide, and you have to be at perfect convergence or you're just not hitting hard enough to do damage.


WW, before you edited your post you had a speed and climb chart on there.

It showed the P-39Q climbing almost 4000fpm up to about (?) 8k or so. I don't think those climb numbers are right. According to jbaugher's webpage, he says:

"Climb to 5000 feet in 2.0 minutes. Climb to 20,000 feet in 8.5 minutes."

That would put initial climb at about 2500, not almost touching 4000 like your test shows in AH. Any idea why AH's version apparently climbs like a 109?

Offline Widewing

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 11:42:25 AM »

WW, before you edited your post you had a speed and climb chart on there.

It showed the P-39Q climbing almost 4000fpm up to about (?) 8k or so. I don't think those climb numbers are right. According to jbaugher's webpage, he says:

"Climb to 5000 feet in 2.0 minutes. Climb to 20,000 feet in 8.5 minutes."

That would put initial climb at about 2500, not almost touching 4000 like your test shows in AH. Any idea why AH's version apparently climbs like a 109?

In game at 25% fuel, initial rate of climb is about 3,700 fpm, tailing off to about 3,600 fpm at 5k. Without WEP, the P-39Q will climb at 3,000 fpm at 10k. A USAAF test data shows climb of a fully loaded P-39Q-1 at about 3,300 fpm from sea level dropping off to 3,200 fpm at 12k. Another source reports 15k in 4.5 minutes, averaging 3,333 fpm. HTC went with the lesser of the two and the climb modeling is undoubtedly taken from the USAAF test.

Baugher uses performance data from pulp aviation books.. Not always reliable and seldom explained. The data he offers sounds like MIL power climb for a fully loaded P-39D.

In game with 25% fuel, the P-39D requires 1:38 to get to 5k. Fully fueled, it requires 1:55 to get to 5k.

My regards,

Widewing



My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline jhenhao

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 12:05:11 PM »
In pratical, Russian did not take aircobra to high .... They usually used him to domain the low with big cannon and ACE pilots. Russian love aircobras and though this is the best plane they have(Treasure for Russia, Junk for Usa)  ^_^

Offline Fox

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 12:06:39 PM »
Have seen several people complaining about the amount of damage the 37mm causes.  Is there any truth to this or is it perhaps a matter of not hitting with it because of poor ballistics?  Thanks.

Offline Krusty

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 12:22:17 PM »
Fox, you'd have to get some info from Tony Williams, I guess, but the rounds seem fairly weak. Against small fighters they almost always do major damage, but I had to pop a P-51D a second time with a 37mm fireball after the first one didn't do much last night.

On the other hand, one round to the front of an a6m5s radial disabled/killed that plane, and 1 round to the aft end of a typhoon took its tail off. It depends.

Vs bombers, forget it. Don't even try. Unless you get a pilot kill it is worse than the yak9t's gun for explosion damage.

Offline moot

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 12:55:01 PM »
I've had maybe 1/2 my deaths so far in the 39D from vert stab damage.  It doesn't seem to be too sturdy, especialy considering how much damage the rest of the plane soaks up.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 12:58:37 PM »
Fox, you'd have to get some info from Tony Williams, I guess, but the rounds seem fairly weak. Against small fighters they almost always do major damage, but I had to pop a P-51D a second time with a 37mm fireball after the first one didn't do much last night.

On the other hand, one round to the front of an a6m5s radial disabled/killed that plane, and 1 round to the aft end of a typhoon took its tail off. It depends.

Vs bombers, forget it. Don't even try. Unless you get a pilot kill it is worse than the yak9t's gun for explosion damage.

I've had the same experience with the 30mm's in German planes, though- It might be from a number of things' (Damage modeling to the fuselage instead of tail, maybe?)

Offline Brooke

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Re: My initial impressions flying the P-39s
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 02:56:13 PM »
I did some flying of the P-39Q offline.  Roll seems quite bad.  It's helped a lot by use of rudder, but just using just ailerons seems quite poor at any speed.  Prop effects on handling (nose swing on change in pitch, for example) seems quite noticeable in the P-39.

I dove it steeply from 20k, and the elevators ripped off once I was past 500 mph indicated (perhaps quite a bit past 500 indicated -- not sure of the exact speed).  I had held it in the buffet region (with airframe creaking) for a while before that happened.  It seems to retain maneuverability up to very high speeds.

The max non-wep speed I got a sea level was about 305 mph.

Climb down low was about 3000 fpm.

I tested turn rate and got, without WEP, 19.7 seconds/revolution with no flaps and 23 seconds/revolution with full flaps.  This was at 100-200 ft altitude.

Visibility out the back (back, left/right back) is not that great.  Not as bad as some of the planes that have no back view of course (P-47D-11, F6F, etc.).