Author Topic: The box flak model is wrong.  (Read 2085 times)

Offline moot

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The box flak model is wrong.
« on: March 27, 2008, 05:19:47 AM »
worse than it was in the previous version.   It will hit you even when you're in a fighter maneuvering at ~400mph from miles away.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,231354.msg2811357.html#msg2811357

How does that happen HT?  Why model it to be completely different from real flak?  Real flak obeys the laws of physics, specificaly the time required to travel the distance between two points.  WWII flak batteries didn't have faster than light technology, so why give it to AH's? 

The only way flak merits the lethality it has now is if it gets time of flight modeled. 
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Offline moot

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 07:31:29 AM »
How about keeping the lethality and burst radius flak has now, and making it so:
Time of flight "T" from gun to target is roughly calculated,
The box of flak happens wherever the plane was going to be (extrapolated), "T" amount of time later.

Would this be a cheap enough calculation? Flak would still shoot through mountains, but at least we'd be able to dodge it, which would possibly allow flak lethality and/or burst radius to be increased a little more.
If CV defense was one of the reasons for beefing up flak, then this would satisfy that need too.
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Offline Vipper65

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 08:54:50 AM »
And why is it modled diffrent for fighters and bombers?  Its still the same gun right?
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Offline moot

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 09:01:44 AM »
It's modeled the same.  All planes have flak magicaly burst around them, hence the "box" nickname.  It's modeled this way because it's too expensive for the calculation budget (or something like that).
The problem is like I said above, you can't dodge it because there's no time of flight at all.  Flak detonates exactly on target regardless of how fast you're going and how far you are.  This means that fighters will take the same amount of damage from far out and zigzaging at high speed, as bombers turtleing along in a straight path and at low speed.

The larger surface area of bombers (x3 with drones) means that, in fact, bombers are more likely to take damage (assuming the flak box is the same size for them as for fighters), but that's beside the point..
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Offline AcId

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 09:04:46 AM »
wow......it STILL shoots through mountians??!!
Is that a "feature" cuz the way I remember things, (most)bugs got squished pretty routinely.

Offline Puck

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 09:06:54 AM »
Wow.  It doesn't need adjustment, it's not close but could use some work, it's just plain WRONG!

I love the new ack.  Let's keep it just the way it is...
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline EvlPrsn

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 09:07:05 AM »
wow......it STILL shoots through mountians??!!
Is that a "feature" cuz the way I remember things, (most)bugs got squished pretty routinely.

it takes to much processing power to make it any better, so we jsut have to deal with it.

oh, and if its that big a deal, hop in a p-38 and dont worry about the hits, they never do any damage  :aok
If i said anything to offend u, plz ignore it.

also, if i say anything stupid or rude, it was probobly too late at night and i was half asleep, so ignore that too.

oh yeah, its all just my opinion, so if ya dont care, just keep it to urself, cuz if u dont care, i sure wont!

Offline moot

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 09:07:16 AM »
Acid, I'm pretty sure it does.. I haven't checked, but IIRC Hitech recently said it was too expensive to calculate ballistics for it.

Wow.  It doesn't need adjustment, it's not close but could use some work, it's just plain WRONG!

I love the new ack.  Let's keep it just the way it is...
Huh??
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Offline Vipper65

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 09:11:57 AM »
Well 10k and just close enough to an enemy CV to see the wake will get you killed.
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Offline Puck

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 09:14:55 AM »
Acid, I'm pretty sure it does.. I haven't checked, but IIRC Hitech recently said it was too expensive to calculate ballistics for it.
Huh??
Moot, I just read this is a pretty binary thread, and it cracked me up.  Ack is WRONG!  It's like...like...six guys sharing a hotel room.  The wrongness factor is incalculable!!   :eek: 

HiTech did, in fact, say calculating the trajectory of every round was too expensive, so the end of every gun barrel has a transporter attached.  Seems reasonable to me.

I really do like it better now.  You get close (as in five or six miles) to a CV group at your peril.  It certainly has its quirks, but I prefer those to the defenseless CV groups of yore, and keeping a carrier barnacle side down is doable.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline EvlPrsn

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 09:15:33 AM »
Well 10k and just close enough to an enemy CV to see the wake will get you killed.

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

i fly over em all the time....  not to mention RIGHT past em on the deck...

usually get killed byt the guy in the f4u!   :aok
If i said anything to offend u, plz ignore it.

also, if i say anything stupid or rude, it was probobly too late at night and i was half asleep, so ignore that too.

oh yeah, its all just my opinion, so if ya dont care, just keep it to urself, cuz if u dont care, i sure wont!

Offline Simaril

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 09:19:39 AM »
I somehow remember HiTech also saying that box flak hits were the result of probability calculations rather than projectile/target calculations...and that he also said other methods were problems because each one he tried ended up with either a deadly laser accurate result or a uselessly dumb gunner. I remember that hit percent results decreased with aircraft speed, distance, and G load.

As I recall, the readme stated that the only changes to the model this time were that the hit probability went up slightly and the damage per hit went down. Doesn't seem like that change would have catastrophic "it's wrong" results....
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Offline Vipper65

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 09:20:40 AM »
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

i fly over em all the time....  not to mention RIGHT past em on the deck...

usually get killed byt the guy in the f4u!   :aok

Are you sure it was the F4U?  :confused:
Viper
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Offline EvlPrsn

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 09:24:27 AM »
Are you sure it was the F4U?  :confused:

might have been the zeke or the seaf, but i'm not sure they could catch a 38 going 400+, whereas the f4u can dive well enuff to do that and still manuever, so i assume it was one of those.   :rofl
If i said anything to offend u, plz ignore it.

also, if i say anything stupid or rude, it was probobly too late at night and i was half asleep, so ignore that too.

oh yeah, its all just my opinion, so if ya dont care, just keep it to urself, cuz if u dont care, i sure wont!

Offline moot

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Re: The box flak model is wrong.
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 09:33:26 AM »
I really do like it better now.  You get close (as in five or six miles) to a CV group at your peril.  It certainly has its quirks, but I prefer those to the defenseless CV groups of yore, and keeping a carrier barnacle side down is doable.
No.  I don't want to sound rude but it's the fourth time I say it.. You can fly around in trajectories that would have real flak crews roll their eyes and look for an easier target, and still flak hits you like you were flying straight and steady.  This is wrong. 
Did you read my suggestion?  It could have a scaling factor to the simulated prediction "error" in aiming, so that it never gets too far from the target.  = No "dumb gunner".  I think for that to really work, there'd have to be more puffs of flak, with a denser distribution in the middle of the cloud of puffs.

"Doesn't seem like that change would have catastrophic "it's wrong" results...."  It is catastrophic when you catch fire despite jinking around at 400MPH+ from miles out.  How does a flak battery manage that?  It couldn't.
It's catastrophic because it absolutely ignores anything you do.. You just bend over and take it anytime you happen to be near it, regardless of whether you try to dodge it or not, regardless of if you're having a good fight.

The suggestion I wrote up there would solve this and still allow for proper CV defense. 
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