Author Topic: Things need to change  (Read 3258 times)

Offline Odee

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2718
      • 49th Fighter Group
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2008, 06:36:46 PM »
Oh, right. Thanks  :aok

11./JG11 was certainly outfitted with the 109T though. I have photographs  :noid  :noid
All two of them?   :rofl

Better check the production run of the "T" 
~Nobodee~   Get Poached!
Elite: Dangerous ~ Cmd Odeed

http://www.luxlibertas.com/

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2008, 06:44:31 PM »
'Activated on 7 April 1943 and commanded by Olt. Hermann Hintzen, Jagdstaffel Helgoland was unique in being equipped with the Bf.109T. This was a navalised, extended-span conversion of the basic Bf 109E originally intended for service aboard the never-to-be-completed aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin.'
Keep in mind a Staffel usually consists of 12 aircraft.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 06:53:36 PM by Motherland »

Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2008, 08:35:06 PM »
Let me take this a couple pieces at a time...

Presumptive reasoning. How do you know that was the motivation? What do you know about AHII setups versus Warbirds? Were you event or arena staff there? Have you been here? How many of the AvA staff do you even know on the basis of not only playing the game alongside them but interacting with them in forums and during events here?

I already answered the presumptive reasoning charge to the best of my ability.  However, it's true that I can't be certain that cv's were added just because they exist in the MA, but it seems like a reasonable inference because they were not used in the actual BoB.  That's certainly a better inference than explaining the presence of cv's with some despotic wish on the part of the AvA staff to punish the axis for past arrogance. :noid

I can't common on current warbirds setups as I haven't played the sim in many years, but I can compare what we have in AH today to what warbirds had in the past around the time of version 2.x.  Back then we had the "historical arena."  There were no gv's in the game, so there was no question of them being in any setup.  Still, no cv's were ever included in a BoB 1940 setup (but there were ships at port you could bomb), and no one every said they ought to be.  Field capture was enabled, but happened infrequently (you had to drop in paras with a ju52).  Probably the lack of gv's and their sneakiness factor made that a bit more difficult.  So, the basic planeset was the Hurri, Spit and B25C for the Uk (the latter being a subsitute), and 109, 110, Ju88 and Ju87 for germany (both sides had the Ju52).

I was never part of the staff that set up the historical arenas, or the scenario lites, or the big scenarios: so all of my experience is as someone who enjoyed the fruits of their labor.  I'm also new to AH because I've only recently got back into flight sims, so my participation with AvA staff here on the forums is minimal.  However, whether I've had personal interactions with the AvA staff has nothing to do with my ability to make sound suggestions or criticisms of what they've provided us.

Now that I've bombarded you with questions and you may be feeling like I'm picking on you for critisizing the AvA staff, let me assure you that I don't think the current setup is perfect, either. But let me also go so far as sharing that I've yet to see one that ever was ... even the ones I helped set up here in the past. I know you may not be asking for perfection ... but ... every single player that's played this arena ... long-term or short-term ... whether they give it a pass of fail ... has had something (or things) they thought needed addressing ... by the staff. And, trust me, for everything that needed addressing there was at least one other vocal player who either thought something else beared more pressing attention or disagreed with the first players's assessment altogether. Your and my general opinion on what physical arena elements seem broken may not be far apart. But your and my impression on not only who to blame but how much blame exists doesn't. I know that in the past, disabling the ability to capture by any method has reduced the playerbase as much as uncontrolled capture has. There's a balance.

I'd like to point out again that I don't put all the blame on the AvA staff, far from it.  But since they have a bit more power in these matters than the rest of us, it's seems reasonable to me to hold them accountable for what they can control, nothing more or less than that.

There's only so much you can so with settings and dictation when it comes to fostering a supportive and dedicated playerbase for the AvA. It's always been the red-headed stepchild of AHII. It's a player mindset that'll create more problems than anything. I bet if you look closely enough at your experiences in Warbirds you'll see the same. Does the community put it's weight behind immersion ... historical immersion, especially? If so, it's the community, as a whole, that deserves credit and reaps the benefit. If not, it's the community, as a whole, that deserves blame and suffers the consequence. If the players don't care about it, whether through ignorance ("How come most of the fighters aren't enabled in the hanger?! Why isn't there a side for the Knights?! I'm a Knight?!) or ambivalence ("So what if the Allies weren't focused on liberating France during the Battle of Britain? The setup gave me the tools and this is what I like!") or a mixture ... it'll be the players that look for ways to play the game outside of historical perspective, no matter what the settings, that set the tone of the AvA. And for those who, ironically, seem the rare exception to the current AvA community mindset ... that of being actually into settings that provide greater historical immersion ... until they can organize, inspire and motivate the rest, they're stuck with what the rest of the community either actively does or blissfully puts up with . Look at TK's post. He helped facilitate and organize invasions to prove a point. To prove a point! But even he couldn't have done so if the players who followed along didn't want to and didn't think it was more fun than flying Spits and Hurris in their historical role of defending their island against inbound Luftwaffe bomber formations and fighter escort (which ... BTW ... ain't happening if the Axis players aren't there to do it or don't care to do it).

A couple of other differences between then and now: we had a number of historically based squads who made it their business to hold their squad night in the historical arena, but here that doesn't seem to be the case (though FSO is even better for those who get to participate).  One thing that's really missing from the AvA are bomber squads.  The 100th BG (the haze) who only recently moved here to AH, as I understand it, used to join up with the old 4th FG in the historical arena, and they would even become the 100th KG during BoB events/arenas.  We certainly need more bomber pilots in this current AvA setup.

edit: I should say that there are still some squads regularly present in the AvA, and it sounds like there used to be more.

The atmosphere of the AvA has always been player driven, no matter how hands on the AvA staff decide to be. And it's not like any of the AvA staff are making a living being AvA staffers. They're players just like you ... many of whom have lives that don't allow baby-sitting the arena as much as the AvA community (which isn't banding together to help historical immersion all that much right now) sometimes demands. Quite honestly, if you think you can do a better job of it (and please try not to take offense .. you may well can) ... then write up your resume' of Warbirds experience and experiences, throw your hat in the ring and run with it. But I'm telling you, if you don't start with the community first (even as a dedicated non-staff player) and resort to making a habit of complaining about how it's all the staff's fault, whether you're selected to serve or not you may have to reap your own sowage in a negative way. That way being the continued sufferage of setups that don't meet your uncompromising standards because the community you failed to inspire as a peer doesn't appreciate a heavy hand and has four main arenas to choose from where they perceive there isn't as heavy a one.

Good suggestions.  You have a good point here that the players need to change if the arena is going to change.  Most of this thread is just people screaming past each other.  I'm going to be a father :O in a little while, so I don't think now would be the right time to try to throw my hat in the ring.  What I can do is draw up some thoughts about what would make a good BoB setup and post it here for your review. :salute
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 08:40:04 PM by Anaxogoras »
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9423
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2008, 08:44:46 PM »
You have a good point here that the players need to change if the arena is going to change.

The AvA is like the Borg.  You either escape, or you are absorbed.  I hope, for each and every one of you, that it is the latter.

There were no carriers in the real Battle of Britain.  We all know this.  There are carriers in this setup because we're trying something just a bit different.  Of course we could slug it out between Dover and Calais, to see who can get the goons through the fighter screen.  That might be fun, and some day we might try that (again - the old-time regulars know that it works).  For now, let's try this.  We still have the historical plane set, you can still be Douglas Bader against Adolf Galland if you want, and the competitors can count bases.  Give it a shot.  It may not be pure, but it is the next best hope that AH offers, and it's a lot of fun if you don't take it too seriously.

- oldman

Offline plink

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 95
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2008, 09:46:06 PM »
Stop complaining.. Axis killed 3 cv's in less than an hour!
For every problem there is a solution.

PLINK

Offline eh

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 314
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2008, 11:14:47 PM »
Many have. It was a specific question to a specific individual based on their specific requests versus their specific experiences. NOT a generality. If you have some specific suggestions then I suppose I can present this specific question to you, as well, and you can follow up ... but follow up on the entire text and suggestions, if you will. If you have ideas, the desire to present them and the willingness to volunteer to implement them, by all means.

Points well taken.  I spoke too soon and out of context. <Maybe I should run for political office.> It was the Air Warrior AvA that never had CVs and used the appropriate rolling plane sets from the periods concerned... a three month war if I recall. It was tons of fun, but I doubt that anyone in Aces High wants to fly one month early, one month middle and one month late European war.

Even so, I have a suggestion. I remember a fabulous terrain for BoB from AH1 back around 2002, when I used to play in there a lot. There were awesome fights over the cities, which looked terrific, London in particular. That was a superb map, equalled only by the AvA terrain of the Baltic in autumn.  And no carriers. Does anyone remember it? Is it still available or usable?

In the meantime, enjoy the novelty of Allied CVs off the coast of France. WBs had them too on some maps, although I am not sure it was for the BoB map. But they did have all planes of the period available to both sides sometimes. It was a little startling to see Zeros and Ki43s alongside Bf109Es over London. Bizarre is as bizarre does.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2008, 12:40:26 AM »
Let me take this a couple pieces at a time...

Very thoughtful reply and thank you. I'll keep in mind that you're as supportive of the historical immersion in AHII as I have been (and may yet be again). And congrats. Fatherhood is both a blessing and a bit of a curse (at times) but you'll never regret it.  :salute

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2008, 12:56:01 AM »
Bizarre is as bizarre does.

True. AW had some of the best scenarios I've ever experienced. So has AHII. My hopes for AvA (then CT) was to be a static scenario setting for players who wanted to escape pizza maps and Mustangs versus Corsairs versus Lavochians versus Yaks versus Zekes versus Nikis. We tried everything (and apparently everything is still an option to try). My effort here focused on some of my own selfish desire ... something late war Pacific that players on both sides could sink their teeth into. The result was an alternate reality setting called "Second Wind." I grouped with other players who threw in their talent in creating a custom map, Japanese skins for the Me262 (Nakajima Kikka - one protoype flew) and Komet (a Japanese variant was on the drawing board). The whole idea was to draw players to the week long event who traditionally shyed away from such settings because they felt the Japanese planset was at too severe a disadvantage to make a late war match-up enjoyable (not many brave Samurai minded players in AH). All in all most considered it somewhat of a success. But it was unusual (aka "bizarre").

« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 01:03:07 AM by Arlo »

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2008, 07:29:45 AM »
All two of them?   :rofl

Better check the production run of the "T" 

I think JG-5 also used the 109T in Norway.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Odee

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2718
      • 49th Fighter Group
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2008, 08:04:08 AM »
I think JG-5 also used the 109T in Norway.
True... But this was in 1943.   I think we're trying 1939/1940 at the moment.
 :salute
~Nobodee~   Get Poached!
Elite: Dangerous ~ Cmd Odeed

http://www.luxlibertas.com/

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2008, 08:04:45 AM »
Don't make me choke you Arlo!  ;)
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2008, 08:19:31 AM »
True... But this was in 1943.   I think we're trying 1939/1940 at the moment.
 :salute

Actually the first 109Ts were operational by 1941. I guess I'm missing the point of the debate. If it's being said that the Axis should not have a CV with 109s because they are E models. Then the Allies should not have CV's with Spits, or Hurris, because they're not Seafires or Sea Hurricanes. Not to mention we have Boston MkIIIs launching from CVs on the Allied side. I have to say I agree with the Axis guys, discontent over the CVs. The whole CV issue in this thing is abstract as hell, and arguing over service dates of the 109T makes little sense to me. That being said I return you to your debate with JG-11.


JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2008, 08:22:14 AM »
Keep your cans afloat.  Keep em at 250-300% hardness.

Gimme a shore battery :devil
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2008, 08:37:47 AM »
Keep your cans afloat.  Keep em at 250-300% hardness.

Gimme a shore battery :devil

Here ya go bud! :aok

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Things need to change
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2008, 08:41:43 AM »
About par for the course.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.