Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII

[Lumpy]

*lol* I must have hit a nerve. Like I said: I will say whatever I damn please. And there is nothing you can do about it. The rest of your post is as deluded as it is irrelevant; you can convince yourself of anything.

[humble]

*lol* I must have hit a nerve. Like I said: I will say whatever I damn please. And there is nothing you can do about it. The rest of your post is as deluded as it is irrelevant; you can convince yourself of anything.

 

Well I for one can ignore it with absolutely no problem, but isnt this the pot calling the kettle black

[Lumpy]

What?! A humorous post by Humble? The world is coming to an end!

[Nashwan]

In 1940,changing from tactical bombing of British Airfields,to strategic bombing of British cities Lost the Nazis the battle of Britain.

The Luftwaffe had already lost the battle in August.

On 10th August, a few days before the Luftwaffe launched their all out attack, Fighter Command had 1,396 aircrew. On 13th Aug, the day the Luftwaffe lbegan their offensive in earnest, they had 579 serviceable Spitfires and Hurricanes. On 7th September, the day the Luftwaffe switched to London, FC had 1,381 aircrew and 621 serviceable Spitfires and Hurricanes.

In nearly a month of all out attacks by the Luftwaffe, Fighter Command pilot strength had remained almost exactly the same, and aircraft numbers had gone up.

On the other hand, the Luftwaffe had lost a lot of their strength. From 869 Bf 109 pilots fit for duty on 1st August, they were down to 735 on 1st September. The number of serviceable 109s had fallen from 853 on the 13th August to 658 on the 7th September. Their twin engined fighter force had also been badly depleted, from 189 serviceable on 13th August to 112 on the 7th September.

Look at those figures for serviceable fighters compared with the RAF:

Force - 13 Aug - 7 Sept
RAF - 579 - 621
Luft - 1058 - 770

The RAF was closing the gap with the Luftwaffe rather quickly before the switch to London. By the 7th September the RAF were not far off parity in fighter numbers.

[Lumpy]

The number of aircrew and serviceable aircraft available is not a reliable statistic to judge the effectiveness of an air force. At the end of the battle the RAF was seriously depleted of experienced pilots, and those that were still alive were exhausted and showing all the signs of combat fatigue. Most of the RAF pilots were by then greenhorns with very limited training ... just like the Luftwaffe pilots at the end of the war.

Unlike the RAF the Luftwaffe did not replace their losses as quickly (almost not at all), so while the Luftwaffe did lose a third of their strength in the battle the remaining strength was not made up of greenhorns, but veterans. And the Luftwaffe was still a superior force in numbers.


"Contrary to general belief and official reports, the enemy's bombing attacks by day did extensive damage to five of our forward aerodromes and also to six of our seven sector stations. There was a critical period when the damage to sector stations and our ground organization was having a serious effect on the fighting efficiency of the squadrons, who could not be given the same good technical and administrative service as previously.........The absence of many essential telephone lines, the use of scratch equipment in emergency operation rooms, and the general dislocation of ground organization, was seriously felt for about a week in the handling of squadrons by day to meet the enemy's massed attacks, which were continued without the former occasional break of a day."

Report by Air Vice Marshal Keith Park - 6th September 1940.


"I watched as one by one our aircraft returned to base after yet another sortie. Most of the aircraft to our delight had returned unscathed, but then I saw this Hurricane coming in to land. His wings were tipping up, then down, then suddenly he hit the ground rather hard only for him to bounce right up again. Then at the second attempt, he finally kept the aircraft on the ground and taxied a short way and stopped in the centre of the airfield. Casualty procedures were put into action and crash tenders and ambulances rushed towards him only to find that the pilot fast asleep, he did not even have time to switch the engine off."

Squadron Leaders remarks at 111 Squadron Croydon September 1940.


"Towards the end of the Battle I had just taken about as much as I could bear. My nerves were in ribbons and I was scared stiff that one day I would pull out and avoid combat. That frightened me more than the Germans and I pleaded with my C.O. for a rest. He was sympathetic but quite adamant that until he got replacements I would have to carry on. I am glad now that he was unable to let me go. If I had been allowed to leave the squadron, feeling as I did, I am sure that I would never have flown again."

Sgt. J.H (Ginger) Lacey 501 Squadron Fighter Command.



It is my belief that had the Luftwaffe continued its assault on the RAF instead of switching to strategic bombing, they would eventually have broken the RAF and reduced the RAF to a point where it could no longer have offered any meaningful resistance. Much like what happened to the Luftwaffe later on. Of course this is all speculation so I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this, except maybe agree to disagree.

[Rich46yo]

See Rules #4, #2, #5

[Lumpy]

See Rule #2

[Bruv119]

It is my belief that had the Luftwaffe continued its assault on the RAF instead of switching to strategic bombing, they would eventually have broken the RAF and reduced the RAF to a point where it could no longer have offered any meaningful resistance. Much like what happened to the Luftwaffe later on. Of course this is all speculation so I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this, except maybe agree to disagree.

In your dreams.

Lumpy you are truly a fool.

Yup.

[Lumpy]

What a rational and mature argument Bruv119. 

[Bruv119]

I did type out some reasoning but then didnt finish it.

Seems to me that you have come to that conclusion with little thought into how long German fighters could actually escort bombers and engage British fighters.  We could have moved production to far flung corners of the UK and still fought outside of 11 group. 

The English channel was the biggest part of the defence and your suggesting the Germans could have actually landed somewhere with a big enough force that wouldnt have been blown out of the water by either the RAF or the RN???

What is your AvA in game nick I would like to do battle with you 

[Lumpy]

Forcing the RAF to move out of southern England was exactly what the Germans were trying to do. I find it quite interesting that your idea of a defence is to do exactly what the Germans wanted; luckily Dowding and Park had different ideas. The RN wisely kept out of range of the Luftwaffe and would not be a part of the battle; the Japanese quite rudely showed the RN what would happen to warships if they sailed within range of land based aircraft. The British Army abandoned its equipment at Dunkirk and didn't even have enough rifles to arm all its reserves. How an invasion of England would have fared for the Germans is almost impossible to say, but I believe the Luftwaffe could have knocked the RAF out of the battle, and that's what's being discussed here. Not a seaborne invasion of the British Isles. If I'm a fool for thinking so, then so be it.

I don't think I would like to do battle with you. I don't very much like rude people.

[Bruv119]

Either way the figures don't lie. 

More German machines were being lost than British and IMO that is down to fighting over enemy territory a long way from your home field and not being able to stay around and fight it out. 

wouldnt have been advisable for 109 drivers looking to stay alive.

Quick few picks then back to france,  screw the friendly bombers.  The bomber arm of the luftwaffe were having grave doubts over the metal of its fighter command. 

[Angus]

Lumpy, watch out that the LW fought in strength against mainly one of 4 of RAF's groups.
When they switched to London they united the fighter force of their western flotte, so in strength they could muster 1000 aircraft on London.
Then they had to face 2 groups, for 12th group then had the time to get into the fight with their much debated big wings.
2 groups vs LW resulted in the LW cancelling daylight ops due to losses as well as seemingly growing RAF. And IMHO rightly so from the LW's behalf, for their losses were absolutely appalling and their replaces were not keeping up.
Was the RAF filling the ranks with greenhorns at the same time as the LW was filling them with veterans?
Well, if so, only for some very short time, and that certainly applied more to the LW later in the war.
I remember my great uncle's process there, and he followed the same speed as all his group at the time.
He left for the UK in 1940 (April) and was already flying along with his whole batch at the time of the BoB. But his first operational sortie was in September 1941! In that particular one, he, the greenhorn, got jumped alone by 2 109's (actuallu due to greenhorn-ness, loosing his friends on a cloudy day, while weaving over France).
Now that would be trouble, but they never managed to get a bead on him. He eventually got away, but the 109's didn't.
Now compare that to Hartmann when he was a Greenhorn. He had the same trouble, just worse, with loosing his mate and an ID issue.
The German vets, although with incredible scores, did not have any more experience in hours than the allied vets, and the LW was manned as a total with much greener blood than their opponents, - over the war, - I'll stick to that
In the BoB, the LW were dropping in both machines and crew, and you can call me Charlotte if they were replacing their crews with as experienced crews as came all the way from the spanish civil war as well as the Blitzkrieg.
The British gained in ranks, and launched a program of incredible manpower, as well as spitting in their palms for increased production.
LW did the big mistake, - underestimating their opponent, in many ways through appalling intelligence.
Nice thread BTW

[MiloMorai]

The RN wisely kept out of range of the Luftwaffe and would not be a part of the battle; the Japanese quite rudely showed the RN what would happen to warships if they sailed within range of land based aircraft.

How much air support did those British ships have?

750,000 rifles, 80,000 MGs and 800 artillery pieces that the USA was getting rid of that was agreed in June 1940 and started arriving in July 1940.

Only 2/3 of RAF FC was committed to the battle in se England. There was still bombers that would be attacking the invasion fleet. So you think the LW had enough fighters to escort any LW bombers attacking RN ships and still provide protection over the invasion fleet?

[Angus]

Bruv, the BoB was not a long way for the Germans, not at all.
However reaching Germany for the RAF was a long way.