OK,enuff with the furballers mentality!

[Tr0jan]

Dont say that  they will all take it off and out turn us 

[sax]

Yes, we can actually quote HT on this. So many players don't understand the reasoning behind this game that I am glad to help out when such questions arise.

The capture system IS suppopsed to facilitate combat. That's its purpose.

In the General Discussion Forum, Thread "The Flawed Updated AH", November 28, 2006, 12:21:10 PM, Post #26, HiTech replied to a poster that posted this:

HiTech's reply was:

I'm glad to be of help to you; no need to thank me. Now go have fun.

Thx Toad . altho this is a kids forum it's good to see you are still alive .

[Toad]

Forgive me, perhaps I should have bolded all of HT's response. Clearly, he DOES NOT say

promote combat in whichever forms field capture might require

I believe that is just your personal attempt to attach some extra significance or extra importance to capturing fields.

Allow me to post his full remark once again, with other emphasis so that you might perhaps more clearly understand the purpose of the game.

HT:

This is a false assumption.


The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.

You see that the game's owner and designer here clearly states that capturing bases is no more or no less a point of the game than "going out and just mixing it up" which pretty well describes fighting for the sake of the fight alone. They are equally valid but more importantly it needs to be re-emphasized that capturing bases/war winning isn't any more valid than furballing. Just go have fun.

It may help if I post another remark by Pyro, also a key figure in the game's development:

Originally posted by Pyro

09-18-1999 02:10 AM


The game is about aerial combat and that takes precedence to everything else. There will be tanks and such in the game but they won't ever be the main focus.

Vehicles will be useful for harrassing the enemy and capturing bases. There will be a lot more vehicle bases scattered around the terrain than airfields, so the travel distances won't be a huge factor.

But the gist of the message is that yes, we'll be putting more into this game than airplanes but our focus of the game is still aerial combat.

Glad to once again be of service!

[Murdr]

Wow, will the thrid reposting of the same HiTech quote finally get the point across?

Here, I'll add another regarding how much consideration has gone in to getting people to engage in combat.

Wanting to live has a roll, but if there is to much cost in dieing, it does not make for fun.

Take a carfull look at our scoring system for fighters.

1. K/d
   This catagory premotes living.

2. K/s
  This catagory promtes both wanting to live and wanting to get kills. When you factor in the rearm pads and victory message, it leans toward the wanting to live V getting kills.

3. K/time
  This one does not promote living at all.

4. Hit %
 Not much one way or the other.

5. Points.
 Waited heavly toward wanting to live. It takes 4 times as many kills if you die v if you land.

The perk system is also layed out both ways.
You get extra points for landing.

If flying a Perk plane living is everything.

Blauk, your free to fly as you wish.
The score system is set up so that multiple flying styles are rewarded. It's what allows you to find a fight. But always keep in mind no one flying style is better or worse then the other by it's self, If you have no death penalty, the reward feeling for a kill go's down. To much death penalty and its hard to get someone to engage.

Many years ago AW tried a one life to live arena. Althow the concept sounds great,(man just think of the tension and realism, just like the real war) it became very aparent after a few days what was wrong with this concept.

In real life the mission out ways your risk of dieing,it's what forces people to engage, just like in senarios.

In the arena you have a choice to not engage any time you wish.
Making death to much of a penalty tips the scales to far in the direction of not wanting to engage.

HiTech

[moot]

Personally, I do not fly to "win the war," but glory to all of those who do.  I wish I could have fun by trying to win the war.  It would make the game a lot more fun to me.  I would prefer to "win the war" according to something approximating historical circumstances...  Still, trying to win the war is healthy fun; complaining and trying to gain the moral high-ground against those who do try to win the war, instead of stopping them, is laughable.

What does gameplay have to do with morality?  It's just pure crud that everyone's complaining about.  It's the equivalent of players coming in to a chess match and shaking the table when they can't win.  It's got nothing to do with morality and everything to do with plain stupid gameplay choices.

[moot]

I don't see a valid reason to cry when you die or get pick etc. It's a war game, the objective is to kill and take base ! Most BnZmer, picker w/e you wanna call it are offensive fighters. Meaning they are usually attacking over enemy air field, with a limited number of friendly replacement over enemy air space. Where the defensive fighters (usually tnb) got unlimited plane to replace their downed plane over that air space.
If you're air field is being capped, take off at another air field, force the enemy to fight the way you want them to rather then fight the way they want you to. Fly with a wingman, it's a lot more fun. So many people cry on 200 channel when they get drag n bag by a pair of fighters, but hey wake up don't fall for the trap they set simple. If you see the 1st BnZ going straight up don't follow because the second one is waiting to clear his six.

The point just flew above your head. You just don't get it. 

[Yenny]

Not everyone want to tnb moot, i'm sure people like it and are good at it. However, there are many others out there that don't like it, such as myself. You find the enemy and you kill it, everything else is rubbish =), but remember you gotta make it back home too. I enjoy blowin people up and such, but It's much more pleasureful for me to land bring my plane back home, even if it's only 1 kill. It just how you play, so please DON'T try to enforce your view point on other players. Everyone pays 15$ to fly the way they want.

[DoNKeY]

Not everyone want to tnb moot, i'm sure people like it and are good at it. However, there are many others out there that don't like it, such as myself. You find the enemy and you kill it, everything else is rubbish =), but remember you gotta make it back home too. I enjoy blowin people up and such, but It's much more pleasureful for me to land bring my plane back home, even if it's only 1 kill. It just how you play, so please DON'T try to enforce your view point on other players. Everyone pays 15$ to fly the way they want.

No one expects everyone else to try and TnB with them until they die a slow, painful, horrible 'death'...   It's fine to pretend you're a real fighter pilot and you're out there to meet the enemy and return safely (hopefully with some kills under your belt).  Heck, even I do that every once in a while, because the history part of the game is very important to me. 

The problem arises though when people put so much precedence on returning safely that it gets to the point where they will only fly in large hoards/safety of numbers and only engage when they have the number advantage, gang up on a low con(s) (most of which are all ready engaged with multiple other enemies) and then precede to pick them when their 'backs' are turned, fly up higher then everyone else and then pick everyone who is already engaged, HO, vulch, run to ack, and probably the biggest one that gets on my nerves, run from a fight once they get reversed (which is usually when they start with the alt/e advantage anyways).  I'm not asking people to stay and fight against bad odds (I do FYI), but you can't honestly tell me you've never seen/been frustrated when you find a nice, rare 1v1, get part way into the fight and they hit the deck and run (or make one BnZ pass on you and run).  I mean honestly, how do people expect to get any better?  I honestly cannot see how anyone would find any of the above fun, at all.  Do they get a pump out of the adrenaline when they're running with their tails between their legs and are frantically dodging and trying to get out of guns range, finally to give a sigh of relief and say 'that was close?'  But hey... it's your money...


In an nutshell, everyone pays their own money and are entitled to fly how they see fit, but some people (and you might even say a majority) need to grow a pair.

donkey

PS:  Yenny, the last part of my post isn't directed towards you, just in case.  Want to clear that up.  It's more towards everyone/a general statement.

[Murdr]

If taking bases was the object of the game, the player that takes the most bases would be the top ranked player.  That is not the case.  The object is to simulate combat between WWII planes and vehicles.  Furballing promotes combat.  Fighting to win the map promotes combat.  Hitech has clearly stated both are valid forms of gameplay.

A note that I would add though is that many rules have been added to the game because the mindset that "winning the war" is the ultimate object of the game tends to surpress/avoid actual combat.  I cant think of a single rule that was made because furballers were not contributing to the gameplay environment that HT intended.

"Furballing" is not strictly airspawn, kill, be killed, rinse and repeat.  It's the guy who has an hour or so of free time to fly, and would like to actually be able to simulate air combat with another human being during that time.  That excludes being swarmed by a horde, or fighting 10 countrymen for the only poor sap in the area.  If there is a spot on the map at a given time that has the chance of allowing a fair fight, the furballer is happy.

It does not take much training, knowledge or effort to win from the advantaged position.  Given equal footing, the fight usually goes to the pilot who is better at applying air combat tactics.  From the disadvantaged position, one needs superior knowledge of the arts of air combat over thier opponent(s) to stand a good chance of comming out on top.

AH is a combat simulator.  Those who choose to allow their skillset to limit them to habitually be more interested in a free kill than risking actual combat, are by nature subject to ridicule. 

On the other hand, those who have solid abilities, fly smart, and do not display hubris for winning when they should win, are generally NOT subject to ridicule.

[JB73]

I don't see a valid reason to cry when you die or get pick etc. It's a war game, the objective is to kill and take base !

Guess you missed the quote from the game creator himself HiTech before this, and multiple times after.

oh and " take base !" learn some GD grammar.

My God no wonder anyone who gets it has quit / is quitting.

[JB73]

Oh yeah, Anaxogoras, do you even have a CLUE why "sheep" are mentioned in AH? If not trying to "look" like a vet just makes you look more stupid and new.

[Yenny]

The reason why I like BnZ is I usually am over enemy air space, next to their air field. I am usually outnumbered by some factor. I don't BnZ on defensive mission like scramble to defend my air field. I'd be upping a 109F and tnb for that task. BnZ allow me to get away when I need to and enter the fight whenever I want.
Usually I'd be looking at 6 vs 2 or so (usually have a wingman) and we just work on them w/ drag and bag tactic etc. One of us would dive in get a shot, and climb back up, while the other circling 2-3k above the fight and make sure no one is following up. If someone is following me up, he'll dive in and clear it.
Most people would do the same. If you're leading the offensive on an air field, and it just you and your wingman against the armada. Your best option would be BnZ, because TnB would get you raped. I believe in vulching ! If I am providing CAP over an air field while our bombers are working on the town and such I will vulch everything that's upping. It's a fair game, I won't give them a chance to get air borne.

[FrodeMk3]

After 11 pages, you guys' can't come to the conclusion that a wall is easier torn down with machinery, than trying to beat it down with your head??? 

There's a little something for everyone in this game. Not everyone is gonna like every facet, but there should be something there for you. Shutup and fly.

[DoNKeY]

I usually am over enemy air space, next to their air field... Usually I'd be looking at 6 vs 2 or so.

What do you really expect?

BnZ allow me to get away...
just you and your wingman against the armada. Your best option would be BnZ, because TnB would get you raped.

If you're so worried about living, why do you fly directly over to an enemies air base with one or two other people, where you know you're going to be outnumbered anyways?

I believe in vulching ! If I am providing CAP over an air field while our bombers are working on the town and such I will vulch everything that's upping. It's a fair game, I won't give them a chance to get air borne.

This is nothing against you, just purely a question that I want to know the answer to.

Would you rather have a fight, or take a base?  Just wondering.

donkey

[crockett]

Not everyone want to tnb moot, i'm sure people like it and are good at it. However, there are many others out there that don't like it, such as myself. You find the enemy and you kill it, everything else is rubbish =), but remember you gotta make it back home too. I enjoy blowin people up and such, but It's much more pleasureful for me to land bring my plane back home, even if it's only 1 kill. It just how you play, so please DON'T try to enforce your view point on other players. Everyone pays 15$ to fly the way they want.

It's not about the type of flying, fly how you want. I don't know why you guys don't understand this. You don't have to TnB or bnZ or what ever, do whjat you want. It's about the very aditude that you posted that kills this game. "You find the enemy and you kill it, everything else is rubbish"

That right there is the problem. It's about the fact you can't ever get a fight going with another plane, without someone with your aditude of "see a red guy gotta kill it" coming in and stealing the kill or picking you. If you see two guys fighting it out leave them alone. Let them get their $15 dollars worth and don't be a so selfish.

If the guy asks for help by all means give him a hand, otherwise let him have his fight because he found it first. If you are in the middle of a furball then by all means it's open season but yea still don't need 5 cons on 1 guy. It's just retared, so if you see 2 guys on a con go find another fight. It's that simple.


I will say I was totally amazed just a little while ago in the DA. I was in a P40 fighting a Huri 2 in a real tough fight. I was next to the enemy base and there must have been 10 cons that took off. One or two made a pass on me and one augered. However the rest stayed out and let us have our fight. I was totally amazed but I died anyway..   One wrong turn is all it takes when fight a huri 2 lol.