Scherf, Tilt.
Yes, Oboe had limitations in the number of aircraft it could guide to a target, and in the distance of the target to be selected. But against precision targets, pathfinding was still useful (and in fact used quite some times by mossie's night bombing operations against precision targets in belgium) so in fact the number of aircraft limitation meant little. And for long range operations Gee still could be used, and H2S could still be used. Both systems when used in close operation worked very well for accurate bombings. I insist, that RAF had to resort to area bombings until late 1942 was a fact, for it had no other means of doing damage to Germany. But since then, there were enough tools to revert to precision bombings instead of the massive area attacks that happened up to VE day.
Well rram not that I agree with mass murder on epic proportions the Germans did bomb some of our cities to rubble killing innocent civilians (not as many). Plus our population didnt go along with gassing millions of Jews even if they didnt know about it (yeah right).
See Coventry or Portsmouth or the docklands.
Paybacks a itch and total war is hell.
The old excuse of "as they did it with us, we shall do the same to them" is not legitim. There are certain limits no decent human (and no criminal) should ever trespass, even in times of war. Harris' area bombing offensive was unsucessful as a whole, needlessy bloody for german civilians (because there was the option to attack production centers instead of cities) and for his own aircrews, and all in all a show of war crimes.
You talk about mass murders done by german bombings on other cities (Amongs them, british ones) as an excuse for the later british area bombings over germany. I'll answer that Göring was sentenced to death because (between many other reasons, but this one was enough to send him to death) of his orders of doing area bombing on enemy cities.
The two standard here is clear: Göring deserved death because he bombed british cities and civilians, but Harris did not because he bombed German cities and civilians. Göring was a criminal for actions such as Coventry. Harris is a knight of the British Empire for actions such as Hamburg. Does this not ring some "Unfairness" bell on someone?.
The part concerning the Jews and the holocaust is so well out of the scope of this debate that I don't understand the reason why you mention it. Maybe because as some germans gassed and murdered innocent jews, the allies should've also gassed and murdered innocent germans?. Killing civilians in bomber-induced firestorms was right because some germans criminals gassed innocents in extermination camps?...I insist, don't understand the reasoning behind mentioning the holocaust in this debate.
Angus:
Then the LW tried to buckle the British by flattening London, but that did not work. And Japan buckled in 2 flashes, so you see the theory was still in use late in 1945...
About Japan I dislike what happened there but we have a problem here. German civilian homes and beings were not a legit war target because they, as themselfs, were not a part of the german war efort. Sure, some of them were just factory manpower (and by late war, not even that as slave labor was very much extended in german factories)...but most of them (not all civilians worked in a factory, by far) were just old people, women (who never were used as labourers in german war industry), children, disabled people, etc. Bombing them was bombing no-war targets, something I think everyone will agree WAS a crime no matter who dropped the bomb, an american, a british or a german.
IN the japanese case the things were much more diferent. A lot of manufacturing was done at the own japanese homes, and women, old people, even children were extensively used as workers in those conditions and their production was a noticeable % of the total Japanese war production.
Japanese civilians, homes, towns and cities,so, were integral part of the Japanese war production, unlike in Germany. Bombing a japanese city was the equivalent of bombing a factory. SO the area bombings over Japan were terrible, but as horrible as it might sound, they were legitim because were conducted over civilians and their homes...but those civilians and homes
were important japanese war production centers. In this same direction I'll say that,for me, all the british bombings over german cities until tools as H2S, or the bombing/navigation aid systems were available, can't be qualified as criminal. The British were at war with Germany. Bomber Command was a numerous offensive force that had to be used somehow. At the time it could be used only one way: bombing area targets by night over Germany.
The problem starts when the option existed of using working systems for precision bombing at night that would guarantee results while killing as little innocents as possible. Before that moment RAF had no option, and a war to wage. After that, RAF HAD an option to stop killing civilians, yet they went on to turn most german cities to rubble and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents while doing so.
Until early 1943 I can't qualify british area bombing as a crime; they had no option and a war to wage. From 1943 onwards it's a whole different matter. And the main responsible of this insistence in murdering innocent german civilians in mass scale was "Bomber" Harris. A war criminal under any possible light one can put him under.
