The defeat of fascism in WWII.

[BnZ]

The domino effect of the network of alliances amongst European countries, is what turned Hitler's territorial ambition in E. Europe into a world war, the same way the "Great War" started. That, and America's commercial and possibly humanitarian interest in not letting the Far East be conquered by Japanese millitarists. The Roosevelt administration, btw, cannot be criticized too harshly, it did everything it COULD to help Britian's cause and bedevil Japan's ambitions, short of blatantly breaking neutrality. One must remember that Roosevelt had BARELY defeated Wilkie, a candidate whose only appeal was swearing to keep the U.S. out of war, by making the same promise. It took a Pearl Harbor to make America interventionist.

So essentially, the war happened because of German and Japanese aggression. Unfortunately for humanitarian idealists, the E. Europe we just saved from Hitler was swallowed up by Stalin with barely a peep from the West. (Returning Polish and Czech pilots who had fought in the BoB and beyond found themselves thrown in gulags, often enough.)  China was allowed to become Maoist with little more effort, with attendant body counts that make Nanking look amateurish.  Then the Most Powerful Nation on Earth belatedly decides to half-heartedly fight for the right of small nations to be free in two of the most awful backwaters of East Asia, winning neither conflict.

This stuff about Hitler and his mad scientists taking over the world with nuclear-armed jet-powered flying wings and other "Sky Captain" storylines is a revisionist&History Channel fib; Great dramatic and speculative fare, but not something most Americans at the time had in their minds as a reason for war.

I'm as patriotic a U.S. citizen as anybody (some would call me jingoistic), but in scoring WWII, I got to say, Fascism struck out, Western Democracy got beaned, and Communism scored, or was rather given, at least two homeruns.

[RRAM]

(for RAM -- fascist-flavored catholic nationalism)

then half the world is fascist even today. I didn't know fascism was rising since half XIX century ,btw. Guess that guys as Garibaldi?.

Fascism is MUCH, MUCH more than "Flavored catholic nationalism".

[Hazzer]

 Charon is correct.Had Britain and the western powers supported the Spanish Republic in 1936,WWII may not have happened.

 

[Lumpy]

In a feeble attempt to get the topic back on track . . . Fascism is an idea, not a "thing."  Ideas rarely if ever truly die, as there is always someone somewhere clinging to it (even the stupid ideas).

I've never really thought the "defeat of fascism" was the goal -- if it had been, they would have done something against Franco, yes?  IMHO, to the allies, it was more about self-defense / self-preservation.  The big three in the Axis were clearly set on continental if not global domination, and therefore would have to be dealt with eventually. 

Thankfully, Britain carried on the struggle in the darkest times and therefore kept the door open.  Had they capitulated, IMO the isolationsts in the US would have prevailed, and the US would have learned to "do business with" a Nazi-dominated Europe rather than fight it.

To clarify: This thread was started as a result of an off-topic discussion in another thread where a poster forwarded the notion that the allies were justified in doing “everything they could to win” because they were fighting fascism (or specifically Nazism). To which I replied that fascism wasn’t defeated in WWII and that it wasn’t even a goal of the western allies. WWII was not an ideological war from the point of view of the western allies.

Angus also stated that “fighting fascism was probably the heaviest factor involved in the UK's decision to give little Hitler the long finger upwards…”. While this is probably fact it would be wrong to say that fascism was the “heaviest factor” for the UK to go to war on Germany. German expansionism and treaty obligations were probably far greater factors in my opinion.

I replied with: “If fighting fascism was the "heaviest factor" involved in the UK's decision to go to war then why did they not finish the job? Spain was a fascist dictatorship until General Fancisco Franco's death in 1975, and was a passive ally to Germany in WWII. Fascist Spain was allowed to enter the UN in 1955, and the United States even entered into a military and trade alliance with a FASCIST nation in 1953. President Eisenhower personally went to Madrid to sign the "Pact of Madrid". Then there is Argentine and Chile ... both fascist dictatorships; one of which would later go to war on Britain over the Falkland Islands.”

And by the way, the very format of the question is ridiculous. Entire books have been written on the causes of WW2, and Lumpy is trolling for argument by pretending that there was only one cause.

I realise that the first post is almost meaningless without the context of the other thread, and that I should have included more of the original debate. My bad.

The fascist were completely defeated in the war....

Only the fascists that were directly involved in the war. Spain, Argentine and Chile were not defeated in WWII, though Argentine was later defeated by the UK in the Falklands Conflict.

I'll repeat what I said in the other thread. Franco was not a Fascist, and his dictatorship was not fascist either. There were so many differences between fascism, Nazism, and the regime Franco implanted in Spain it would take us days to completelly debate them.

But I insist: Spain was not fascist at the time. The nearest thing to a fascist ideology present in spain would be that one of the Falange (quite some falangists were placed in quite influencial spots at the time; but the Falangist movement and ideology were disliked by Franco. The Falangist influence in Spain diminished very fast after the Civil War ended) and the Falange was FAR from being fascist anyway.

While you certainly are entitled to your opinion Francism is generally accepted as fascist. While support from America, the economic transformation of Spain in the 1960’s and the subsequent peaceful transition to democracy after Franco’s death may have created the impression that somehow his regime was not fascist, it clearly was if you look at the political organization and the actions they took. Just like there are many flavours of democracy (republic, parliamentary etc.) there are many flavours of fascism, and Franco’s “Movimiento Nacional” was one. Franco’s regime fully embraced the dictatorial “leader principle”, fanatical anti-communism to the point of genocide, fanatical nationalism and the elimination of any culture or symbol that was not truly “Spanish”. Thus the Basque and Catalan languages and culture were totally repressed.  Between 1940 and 1942 approx. 200,000 people were purged in Franquist Spain. Mostly communists and people considered “anti-Spain”.

If you want to know more about Franquist Spain I recommend the excellent book: “Fascism in Spain, 1923–1977” by Stanley G. Payne. http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Spain-1923-1977-Stanley-Payne/dp/0299165647

I think fascism would have been left alone if the countries espousing it had not waged aggressive war on neighboring peaceful nations.

Indeed.

Do not underestimate Lumpy. He has a sharp mind, and is a teaser by nature.
I have yet to see him make a slip on facts recently, while I have seen you do so.
Maybe he had just a few ales too many? Happens...

Thank you for those kind words!

… Vodka actually

[moot]

Don't you guys have better things to do then debate ideas on a stricly textual medium? Sheesh - what's the world coming to?

[BnZ]

No.

[moot]

Shame on you.

[RRAM]

While you certainly are entitled to your opinion Francism is generally accepted as fascist. While support from America, the economic transformation of Spain in the 1960’s and the subsequent peaceful transition to democracy after Franco’s death may have created the impression that somehow his regime was not fascist, it clearly was if you look at the political organization and the actions they took. Just like there are many flavours of democracy (republic, parliamentary etc.) there are many flavours of fascism, and Franco’s “Movimiento Nacional” was one. Franco’s regime fully embraced the dictatorial “leader principle”, fanatical anti-communism to the point of genocide, fanatical nationalism and the elimination of any culture or symbol that was not truly “Spanish”. Thus the Basque and Catalan languages and culture were totally repressed.  Between 1940 and 1942 approx. 200,000 people were purged in Franquist Spain. Mostly communists and people considered “anti-Spain”.

If you want to know more about Franquist Spain I recommend the excellent book: “Fascism in Spain, 1923–1977” by Stanley G. Payne. http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Spain-1923-1977-Stanley-Payne/dp/0299165647

Lumpy.

I don't need a book written by a foreigner about my own country's history. I repeat that I have little symphaty for Franco and Franquism, but that no matter what an american writer thinks, it was NOT fascist, even in it's first years. It was a dictatorship, yes, but from there to fascism there's a world. There were some similarities. There were MANY differences. But it was a right winged dictatorship. Not fascist.

Now believe what you want. If you want to keep thinkin that you know more about spanish history than me (who I'm a spaniard) then all the worse for you.

[Lumpy]

Ah ... you're a Spaniard. I will take your posts with the appropriate grain of nationalistic salt then, just like if you were a German arguing that Nazism wasn't fascism. Just for your information Stanley G. Payne is considered the authority on both fascism and modern Spanish history in any language and has written among other books: "The Franco Regime: 1936-1975", "Fascism: Comparison and Definition", "Franco and Hitler: Spain, Germany, and World War II", "Spain's First Democracy: The Second Republic 1931-1936", and "A History of Fascism 1914-1945".

You will have to forgive me, but I'll take his word over yours.

[LTARGlok]

Does anyone actually believe fascism was defeated in WWII or that defeating fascism was actually a goal of the western allies?

Fascism was defeated in Germany and Japan only.

The greatest irony today is that one of the strongest enemies of Fascism in WWII: Russia, has now become a fascist state itself under Putin.

Most ironic indeed that the nation that is now the most like Nazi Germany, was once its greatest enemy.

.

[Charge]

"Most ironic indeed that the nation that is now the most like Nazi Germany, was once its greatest enemy."

Wiki: "Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, ethnic nationalism, racism, collectivism, eugenics, antisemitism, opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism, a racially-defined and conspiratorial view of finance capitalism, anti-communism, and totalitarianism."


More ironic IMO is that nazism and faschism are so defined with certain countries and times that people do not realize that such movements are formed by certain desires people have and thus it changes shape all the time and gains ground where it can. Of course such movement would not be possible today as it was in Germany in 1933 but in other form it could, and again only time would reveal, when looking back, that they were indeed of the same origin i.e. desires and forms of behavior people may develop while living in our form of civilization. Nazism was nothing new in human history but in the form it emerged it was easily defined and it left a distinct mark in our history books in its form. Hell, next similar think could be "bonkism" or "wankism" or what ever and it would not necessarily have the distinct "watermark" of nazism but rather be traced easily to certain human behavior models and social hiccups of our civilization. What I'm saying is that it is stupid to put you finger on the word "nazism" or "faschism" and think that you have it all under you finger... 

-C+

[Cthulhu]

Lumpy.

I don't need a book written by a foreigner about my own country's history. I repeat that I have little symphaty for Franco and Franquism, but that no matter what an american writer thinks, it was NOT fascist, even in it's first years. It was a dictatorship, yes, but from there to fascism there's a world. There were some similarities. There were MANY differences. But it was a right winged dictatorship. Not fascist.

Now believe what you want. If you want to keep thinkin that you know more about spanish history than me (who I'm a spaniard) then all the worse for you.

I'll have to side with RRAM. Although some historians suggest that Franco was a fascist, I've always seen him as more of an opportunist. Iron-fisted dictator yes, but one who went "with the flow" in order to gain and stay in power. Frankly (no pun intended), I think the man's only ideology was whatever brought him more power.

IMO, the biggest problem with "Fascism" is that most of us are incapable of explaining what it is.

[moot]

Excessive disregard for the weak; weak re: some purpose arbitrarily chosen by some berserk leader.
To stay on topic:  fascism is either an idea or a political movement.  The idea is abstract so it obviously is oblivious to material warfare.  The political movement is as good as any social movement.. It'd be an academic matter to study history and show how it suffered (mostly in number of adherants I guess) from WWII's fascists' enemies..  Sort of like hippidom was defeated (or not) by hygene and purposeful lifestyle. Or something

[croduh]

People here mixed up something.ww2 Germany - Nazism
                                            ww2 Italy - Fascism

[Cthulhu]

Hippydom defeated by hygiene?