What if???

[IronDog]

Beings most of AH players are into WWII,I will put this topic out to see what kind of answers I will get.What if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia in 1940,and kept up the pressure on the Brits?I will put in my oppinion first,and remember this is only a attempt to get some good feedback on how it may have played out.My scenario goes something like this,I believe the Germans could have eventually wore the Brits down,and came close to if not actually forcing a landing,but I think the United States would have had to declare war on Germany, i'm not sure the USA could have came up to speed,and made a difference.If Britan fell,and Russia stayed out,we would have had the USA fighting a two front war early on,as the Japanese would have sided with Germany and Italy.I believe the whole key would have been Russia staying out,but it was known that Russia planned on invading Germany,and Hitler didn't want to worry about what old Joe Stalin was going to do.So the USA,and all
it's remaining allies would have had a long,hard fight,to overcome the axis powers,but Germany's lack of navel power would eventually swung the battle in the USA's favor.The fight on the west would have also been slow and tough,and with Japan's Navy playing a major part,it would have been a lot harder for the USA to defeat.Do I think the axis could have taken over control of the world,no!They would have been stretched too thin,and the logistics would have led to their downfall.Remember this was just a what if!

IronDog

[Angus]

It would have been quite a show.
With the RN ruling the waves, there would be airwar, where Hitler could have made a second pass at the BoB.
The Med would be an important question as well. It was not just Germany, but also Italy...

[IronDog]

I'm surprised at the lack of response to such a stimulating set of possiblities

[Airscrew]

just now saw it... someone had a "what if" like this a few weeks ago, except Britian sues for peace or something and Hitler goes for Russia.

In this what if, I think Britain would have eventually fell or very close to it, and if USA declared war they wouldnt have anywhere to stage from except Greenland and Iceland.  Without the british naval help with german U-boats it probably would have gone badly, especially if its 1942.  If Britain falls then so does the Med and North Africa.  With those secure Hitler can cover the Eastern Front. 

[Overlag]

german airforce continue to bomb airfields and other defence based targets and not turn to city bombing would be a start.

but lack of landing craft, and stuff to sink the RN would make it hard to out right defeat the UK. Sure once they got over here they would probably rush around london quiet fast, but resupply/logistics of it all soon fall flat on its face. A army cant move without supplys.


My general "plan" would be
1: neutralise UK air defence, and keep it capped.
2: make it really hard to get food to the uk. by
2a: using subs as they did in "real life"
2b: making all efforts to attack the UK's navel bases like Malta, Suez and Gibraltar
3: cutting off the med makes it easier for the Italians to do there thing, and makes supplying the UK extremely hard.

The possibility now is the UK surrenders and Germany/Italy/Japan gain all there assets like Oil etc, but while the UK itself may have surrendered i doubt all the other countries in the empire would have, and even if they did, the ships would probably be scuttled etc?

The lack of Oil and a long term plan is what caused WWII to go the way it did.



Could also argue that Barbarossa only failed because of the Italians vs the Greeks fiasco...

Then Navel issues, not enough surface fleet or subs.  Personally id aim all in one direction. And since there would be no offence vs America, then id go for subs. and using those subs to starve UK and Russia... If 100% went into subs, you would have more to do the job, and much better models too.

[Holden McGroin]

What if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia in 1940,and kept up the pressure on the Brits?

He would have to explain why that in Mein Kampf he wrote that, "The external security of a people in largely determined by the size of its territory." If he won power Hitler promised to occupy Russian land that would provide protection and lebensraum for the German people. This action would help to destroy the Jewish/Marxist attempt to control the world: "The Russian Empire in the East is ripe for collapse; and the end of the Jewish domination of Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state."

[IronDog]

sorry if I doubled on thread,but will try to get a little out of it.I agree that Britain would have been a hard nut to crack.The German lack of landing craft,and general Navel resources..except for U-boats,was telling.Capping Britain was doable,but again air resources going to Russia,and failure in strategy and tactics allowed the Brits to weather the storm.Me 109e's being only able to loiter for a few minutes over targets,and Me 110's,and Ju87's failing in there roles hurt badly indeed.Plus the one thing that is a telling factor,Blitzkrieg tactics wouldn't have faired well in England.Finally,the British people had a resolve like the world has never seen,and I believe that Germany could have never completley defeated Britain.Declaring war on Russia was about as bad a move as Hitler could have made at that point in time.
IronDog

[BlkKnit]

Here goes:

IMO
109's would have either been developed into a version with greater range to allow more time over target OR (and I believe this more likely) the FW190's would have really come into their own as escorts, carrying drop tanks and getting better and longer performance over the target area.  Better bombers would have been developed I'm sure as the effort of attacking Britain dragged on for a couple of years.  All that being said, the fact that attrition played a large role in the BoB would have remained a major factor: British pilots who bailed could get a new plane and keep fighting, German pilots who bailed became POW's.

[AquaShrimp]

Germans invade Britain.  United States performs amphibious landings on Britain also, and defeats the Germans.  Weakened by heavy fighting, Germany's homeland is then invaded by Russia.  The war is over by 1943.

[-tronski-]

The US could have not taken GB back by amphibious assault

 Tronsky

[C(Sea)Bass]

Assuming the US would continue on a rather similar path as it did, Berlin would have been Hiroshima.
I have doubts that a German land invasion of Britain would have worked, them brits fight like badgers.

[BarryBD]

IMO, if Brittain was occupied like the rest of Europe, there wouldn't have been a foothold from where to start a European Invasion. (Mayby from Africa to Italy, but that would have been it, (the Alps are in the way, and Swiss was Neutral, Spain was not involved directly in the conflict (with the pyrenees in between), Austria was part of "das tritte Reich", and go around would have been impossible because you needed to trespass on Sovjet soil...

Anyway, the US didn't have any interest whatsoever in the war in Europe.  So after taking Brittain, Hitler could easely have attacked the SU, without having to worry about a 2 front war...

I think eventually, the US would have been forced to stay on their continent, and deal with the axis powers in a business manner...

[IronDog]

Thanks for the replies,and I must say some of your thoughts are very interesting.War over by 1943 sounds possible if things went right.The USA staying out,and having to deal with the axis later is interesting.I fall back to the two key elements Great Britain falling,and Russia not being attacked,or staying out.I believe if Germany would have captured GB,the war would have lasted a loooong time.The Brits retreat their fleet,and as many men and aircraft as they could to the USA.The fighting wouldn't have been like the Pacific,as Germany and Italy's Navies would have been no match for the combined USA,and British fleets.With the fighting in the Atlantic,the Pacific theatre would have went a lot different,and I could have seen Hawaii falling.Keep the ideas coming gents!

IronDog

[BarryBD]

I think, that if Germany did take Brittain, the governement would capitulate and unconditonal surrender without any hope for self-governement of brittain (see the reason why Hitler wanted to start the war, i.e. revenge for the humiliation of Germany after the first war).  This would mean that the British authorities would have to collaborate with Germany.  As so, the British Navy would become part of the German seaforces...

Since the entire US navy was occupied in the pacific... where would the Britisch navy run to (if they would not surrender to Germany), without supplies ...

They would have to go all around africa to reach the pacific, and team up with the US fleet,  ...

So, I think the US would become a solo-player, get isolated, and would have to retreat...

[IronDog]

I think, that if Germany did take Brittain, the governement would capitulate and unconditonal surrender without any hope for self-governement of brittain (see the reason why Hitler wanted to start the war, i.e. revenge for the humiliation of Germany after the first war).  This would mean that the British authorities would have to collaborate with Germany.  As so, the British Navy would become part of the German seaforces...

Since the entire US navy was occupied in the pacific... where would the Britisch navy run to (if they would not surrender to Germany), without supplies ...

They would have to go all around africa to reach the pacific, and team up with the US fleet,  ...

So, I think the US would become a solo-player, get isolated, and would have to retreat...

see above about where British fleet would have went.
IronDog