D9 v. La7 Duel

[Rich46yo]

I flew a 190 last night for , almost, the first time. Its a nice airplane but I have to find a way to set views cause Im so used to Yank, Brit, Russky views. Most of all clean "look up" views. The middle canopy bar gave me problems so I probably have to set it offset cause in fights I have to be able to have a clean forward up view.

It wasnt the D-9, I think it was a D-5. It was during a mission. I really like the airplane tho, it was very responsive and handled speed well. I can see why a lot of guys fly almost entirely German.

[BnZ]

Come on now guy, we both know the Mossie is no B-17 in handling. It retains E, has the guns from hell, and, compared to any 190, is an excellent turner.

In this fight, both 190s, after the Mossie threw them an angle they couldn't handle, they kept pushing it anyway, and inevitably ended up out in front as targets. If they had some energy and used E-fighting, the Mossie might have been inevitiably picked apart, otherwise a Mosquito (like almost every other plane in the game) should pwn a 190 in any kind of angles fight.

And I think most players seeing a 190 at 200 WILL try to pull  outside of his gunnery envelope, I don't think most will just let go of the stick and go get a coke at that juncture.

Basically, if I didn't know whose films I were watching, I'd see nothing to choose between this film and Yenny's, in terms of piloting genius. In both cases there was some sort of initial disadvantage (Yenny's, plane type he was facing, the Mosquitos, numbers he was facing), there was some misjudgement on the opponent's part, both film makers used the inherent advantages of their aircraft to win, and both films display excellent gunnery. One is supposed to be utter dweebery, the other utter genius...sorry, just don't see it that way.

who cares about what wingzero was flying, he just got roped whilst i was trying to rope the A8.  Anyone in a D9 and an A8 can beat a co-alt mossy 2 on 1. Do you really think that every time someone displays a small piece of cartoon flying genius through luck or skill that it means the enemy has got to make gross mistakes? the time to react is minimal when the moves are correct.

did you not see the second kill? the very vast majority of players flying something huge like a mosquito would have given up and died when they looked back and saw a 190A8 at 200 yrds. but no, instant reaction and the decision that negative energy is how to win this fight. The split second the con is ID'ed the counter kicks in though instinct. Some times an attacker can do everything in his power correctly and the deffender still comes out on top. One of thse days i hope everyone realises the E does not = life everytime.

[Yenny]

i didnt mean to sound like a jerk but some of us get sick of seeing things like this. to me it looked like your a 1 trick pony and you didnt try anything but climb climb climb cuz the la7 made his turn to fight while you climbed up to avoid the fight. And ive seen alot of people turn fight in a d9 ALOT. If you dont try to do those things you will never learn, Any plane can turn you just have to try todo it or you will never learn it. using tactics like this in the MA are very good tactics but the DA is about pushing your planes to its limits and you didnt come close to doing that. if i say p40 almost everyone will say easy kill but i have alot of films of my p40 out turning fm2's spits, hurris, zekes. i only learned how to win those fights cuz i wasnt afraid to turn with a supiror plane. and this is far from a training vid it shows nothing that is helpful....like i said noobs can bnz so everyone should know how to pull this move off with ease. see what i mean by not being much of a training vid and it dont really belong in this thread...this is why there is a films and screenshots section. also you say you have yet to accomplish out turn fighting an la7 in a d9...your not gonna learn how if you dont try. And if there is an existing thread about this why didnt you just post there? why start another pointless thread? this is another reason alot of new guys threads get ignored. i have nothing agenst you but i found this thread a waste of time and am askin myself why im bothering to post in it. 

I dunno bout you buddy, but when I duel with intent to win I will try any trick in the book to win. When I practice though, I will make mistake etc and not care as long as I learn. As for tnb wise, I've taken 1 vs 3 in TT in a spit16 and down all 3 just fine. However, I was in a spit16 though =), if that was a D9 i was flying i'd probably stick to bnz. Different plane require different approach that's all.

[reeb]

i bet you would ho in a duel also...even if its specified before hand to have no ho's ive fought your type in the DA many times and they all end up the same....dead 

[Widewing]

Okay, I just watched it, and I've got to wonder what crawled up the butts of the nitpickers posting to this thread.

Yenny engaged the La7 co-alt and with less speed. Despite this, he used the vertical and conserved E while the La7 wasted abit on the merge. Yenny built an E-advantage while never getting more than 2K, away, Hell, I don't think he even got 1.5K from the La7. He then whacked the thing with what constitutes some pretty elite gunnery, as least compared to me. He did this in about 2 mins and 30s seconds from the merge. You guys really get excessively bored in 2 mins and 30seconds? Boy, t.v. must have really done a number on your attention spans.

The only thing questionable aspect of the fight is that the La7 had enough energy to follow the D9 up and make the shot, if he had pushed it. But the La7 driver apparently didn't know that, and winning based on the opponent's mistake is what it's all about.

Widewing, I'm going to have to single you out especially.

This comment in regards to Yenny's film "That was a duel like two old ladies at a stoplight are drag racers...." does not mesh with your advice in this very thread two pages later...

"What you should have done was carry more speed than he could manage into the merge. You were not using WEP to build speed. Use WEP to take off, and leave it on. You could have had nearly 400 mph before the merge. Don't immediately reverse off the merge, but extend about 1.0k to 1.5k and convert into the vertical. Cmustard blew most of his E on the reverse. You would have the advantage of altitude and E, then you can fight your Dora to its strengths. From here on, killing Cmustard would be easy as long as you maintain the tactical advantage. Drag him higher, bleed every bit of E out of his fighter, than drop in and kill it.

If you allow E states to equalize, the La-5FN will eat the Dora for lunch."

So you are lambasting Yenny for attempting to fly his airplane using almost exactly the same strategy you advise someone to use a few posts later, build and keep an E advantage. These are also almost exactly the same tactics you showed me to use in a 190A5 vrs. a Hurri, used to have a nice long film of you showing me how the FW could continuously make passes and take shots while maintaining its E,  and rope the Hurri anytime it tried to go nose up to follow, something you are very skilled at...guess those were unmanly wussy tactics to use in a fighter, and I should forget about them though, correct?

This trend towards total rejection of energy fighting is absurd. If we follow it long enough, the Val will eventually become the unbeatable uber-fighter of the game, at least until the Sopwith Camel is introduced...  BTW, I would suggest that if we don't want people using spiral climb, it should not be listed as a valid tactic on so many flight sim ACM websites.

So, how could you tell that the La-7 had more speed than the Dora on a You Tube video?

The big difference between my 190A-5 vs your Hurri IIC and Yenny's fight was that I was engaged, making repeated attacks. "Pin them, bleed them, kill them". Yenny prevailed only because the La-7 elected to try climbing to the 190. Had the La-7 unloaded and accelerated away, he could have reset the fight. I never let you go, I stayed on you all of the time, and I was being leisurely about it. I made 11 attacks in 5 minutes. That's a vast difference compared to Yenny's duel.

What I didn't say to Bosco123 is to stay engaged, keep the other guy defensive. Unlike the Hurricane, the La-7 can light the burners and get some separation if you give it too much leash. Because of that, you need to stay close enough to prevent the La-7 from building E. You do that by constantly making it maneuver by attacking at every opportunity.

Yenny was not aggressive, he was perfectly happy to let the La-7 pilot fly dumb. If the other guy was smarter, he would have reset the fight and forced another merge, and repeated it until Yenny made a mistake or one of them ran out of gas.

Here's the film you mentioned.. http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film46_0000.ahf

There's little in common with Yenny's duel.

My regards,

Widewing

[Yenny]

i bet you would ho in a duel also...even if its specified before hand to have no ho's ive fought your type in the DA many times and they all end up the same....dead 

^_^ HOing is too much risk, not a good way to go at it=). I only play for 2 months, and in this campaign I have 1700 kills and 500 sorties in fighters. Sry but I usually don't try to get shot down =). So HOing and messing w/ AAAs are not my game.

[mechanic]

lol BnZ.
I would like to see someone else post a film of a mosquito reversing a same speed 190A8 from this starting possition. i hope the diagram is clear enough.  both planes at the start of the trail are going almost exactly the same speed.




you think that just happens because the mosquito is not a b17 or because the 190 is terrible?
even a total newb could kill the mosquito there unles the mossy does enough work quick enough.. my geuss is it would take an inexperienced mosquito flyer more than a week to even be able to fly that tight without flipping and crashing.

[PFactorDave]

lol BnZ.
I would like to see someone else post a film of a mosquito reversing a same speed 190A8 from this starting possition. i hope the diagram is clear enough.  both planes at the start of the trail are going almost exactly the same speed.


(Image removed from quote.)

you think that just happens because the mosquito is not a b17 or because the 190 is terrible?
even a total newb could kill the mosquito there unles the mossy does enough work quick enough.. my geuss is it would take an inexperienced mosquito flyer more than a week to even be able to fly that tight without flipping and crashing.

I'd love to view any Mossie films you have. 

[mechanic]

mosquito vs 2

here is one from earlier in this thread dave, let me know if you want more.


oh, and turn the voice volume down in AH game menu before watching it, these two goons on range ch are very annoying. 

[PFactorDave]

here is one from earlier in this thread dave, let me know if you want more.


oh, and turn the voice colume down in AH game menu before watching it, these two goons on range ch are very annoying.

Saw that one, thanks.  I'd love to study as many Mossie films as you have handy.

[mechanic]

ok i will PM you in the next few days.

[Widewing]

Here's another example of using the vertical to pin down another fighter, burn off his E and then kill it. I'm flying an La-5FN, and Optiker is flying an F4U-1D. Optiker is a much better than average F4U stick, but you will rarely see him in the MA. This film begins with the two of us in a right-hand lufbery. The F4U turns much smaller circles than the La-5, but the Lavochkin's much better turn rate overcomes this (note the speed differential between the two aircraft). Optiker abandons the turning contest and breaks out of the lufbery. He open a slight gap, but the La-5 begins to run him down. He executes a climbing break turn. I take a snap shot and go vertical. From there on, the F4U is almost helpless.

The film: http://home.att.net/~historyworld/La-5vsF4U.ahf


My regards,

Widewing

[BnZ]

I appologize Widewing, I did make one mistake, it was not you who criticized Yenny for making a gentle reversal instead of a gut-busting turn on the merge with the La7, thus there is no contradiction there. Though apparently your  advise to extend about 1K beyond the merge and reverse in an E conserving manner is seen as lame tactics by some...

As I see it, the La7 would have been doing the D9 a favor by diving away as soon as the D9 zoomed, since the La7 really had enough speed to catch and kill the D9, if only the pilot had known it. The D9 can catch an La7 in a dive, and that would have allowed the D9 to begin working the La7 from the offensive position, OR, climb at leisure to an alt where the Dora outperforms the La7 and see if it tries to come up, his choice.

I could tell the speed because Yenny posted the same film in .ahf format. The La7 was about 10mph faster than the D9 on the approach to the merge. There was no energy advantage to work at the beginning, no real way to immediately go offensive. Yenny's strategy of trying to drag the fight up to an alt where he has the horsepower advantage is reasonable.  Truth be told, he didn't really have enough speed to do what he did with the La at that alt, if you look at the relative airspeeds, the La could have watched him, done an E-conserving reversal, followed him up and shot him. What Yenny did basically worked as a bluff, and the La7 didn't call it. That was MY problem with the film, whereas what he did might have worked to build a usable E advantage against a P-51 or Jug, a savvier La pilot would probably have just shot him.   But, seeing as how he didn't even hold a speed advantage on the merge, seeing as how the La7 holds  most all the cards at that altitude co-e, and seeing as how enough people were ripping on Yenny in the first place, I didn't emphasize that part.  It was the La-7's fight to loose, and he screwed up, why don't we rip on THAT guy awhile? (On second thought, lets not, enough of that crap on BBS already.) Yenny did about he could do and suceeded. We don't get to see repeated attacks from him because he killed on the first thing resembling a shot opportunity the other guy gave up. Like I say, if someone is not supposed to even try a climbing spiral, lets remove it from the ACM websites...

One difference between a D9vsLa7 fight and a A5vHurri fight is that an A5 carries a sizeable E advantage over a Hurri if both are just running along co-alt at their top speeds, and also carries a very large advantage in ROC and acceleration which allows very agressive tactics with little chance of the Hurri equalizing E. Plus, if your gunnery is phenomenal enough to practically guarantee hitting the target on every pass, you are not me and are not as worried about what turn the fight takes immediately AFTER you've made your pass, if that makes any sense. Aggression is fine but I know from experience it is also easy to blow every advantage with one pass by diving in at a clumsy angle instead of having abit of patience.

So, how could you tell that the La-7 had more speed than the Dora on a You Tube video?

The big difference between my 190A-5 vs your Hurri IIC and Yenny's fight was that I was engaged, making repeated attacks. "Pin them, bleed them, kill them". Yenny prevailed only because the La-7 elected to try climbing to the 190. Had the La-7 unloaded and accelerated away, he could have reset the fight. I never let you go, I stayed on you all of the time, and I was being leisurely about it. I made 11 attacks in 5 minutes. That's a vast difference compared to Yenny's duel.

What I didn't say to Bosco123 is to stay engaged, keep the other guy defensive. Unlike the Hurricane, the La-7 can light the burners and get some separation if you give it too much leash. Because of that, you need to stay close enough to prevent the La-7 from building E. You do that by constantly making it maneuver by attacking at every opportunity.

Yenny was not aggressive, he was perfectly happy to let the La-7 pilot fly dumb. If the other guy was smarter, he would have reset the fight and forced another merge, and repeated it until Yenny made a mistake or one of them ran out of gas.

Here's the film you mentioned.. http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film46_0000.ahf

There's little in common with Yenny's duel.

My regards,

Widewing

[Yenny]

The big difference between my 190A-5 vs your Hurri IIC and Yenny's fight was that I was engaged, making repeated attacks. "Pin them, bleed them, kill them". Yenny prevailed only because the La-7 elected to try climbing to the 190. Had the La-7 unloaded and accelerated away, he could have reset the fight. I never let you go, I stayed on you all of the time, and I was being leisurely about it. I made 11 attacks in 5 minutes. That's a vast difference compared to Yenny's duel.

If the La-7 decide to break, drive down and pull back up for a HO passes he could reset the fight. Only if he did it early in the fight. If he did it late then I will come screaming in, and he'd have to break which burn his E while I will zoom back up conserving it. From there on, the La-7 will be on total defensive, as every pass I make he will burn some E.

here is the *.ahf file of the fight http://files.filefront.com/190D9vLa7ahf/;10092241;/fileinfo.html

[BaldEagl]

I keep reading in this thread how the combatants never got more than 1.5K away from one another.  That may be true but when one is dragging the other for two minutes it's not a duel.  Dueling means that you REVERSE at 1.5K (give or take .5K) so please don't try to make this sound like you were "fighting in the box".  You were'nt.  Plain and simple.

Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA.  Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths.  It was "smart flying".  It was not, however, what one expects in a duel.  All the vets here seem to agree.  He needed to reverse sooner and keep the pressure on to qualify this as a duel.

I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel."  My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.

That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.

Yenny further claims that had the La not followed him, that he would have b'n'z'd the guy until he lost all his E and died.  I'm also guessing that a trainer or a vet would have stripped Yenny of his E doing this relatively quickly (to his demise or until he ran for his life).

I'm still not trying to be harsh, just calling it like I see it.