D9 v. La7 Duel

[mechanic]

Yenny. most of these guys are so long playing the game they completely forgot the thrill of it all. They were the same as you many years ago, eager to show the world their latest great move or kill shot. They dont mean to be such jerks about it, or if they do then they are just jerks


admitedly your film was a little on the tedious side. From my perspective i saw someone fly to the best of their ability in a certain aircraft. If that was the best of your ability in the 190D9 vs an La7 then i salute you.

two things are suggested to me by your posting this.

1) You felt this was some of the best 190d flying you can presently do, and thus felt that sharing it would increase your reputation possibly, but certainly make you feel a little proud that you did what you wanted to do and did it better than alot of your other attempts.

2)That you wanted to have a certain gauge of your own ability. To share the film would be sure to generate negative and possitive responses at the same time which would give you an unbiased grade for your efforts. you sure got that!

I think if you had posted something like

"This is my current level of fighting, what could i do better?"

"here is a good example of Boom and Zoom move repeatedly"

or even

"is this considered 'dueling'?"

then you would have got a better response than sayin

"i own this la7, come see"

I know that your intention was to generate interest with a snappy sales pitch that would draw more heads and be a little fun. some people do find it hard to distiguish between tounge in cheek and outright boasting in the ambigous medium of internet text life.
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BnZ:

get in your enemy's head and the rest is easy and i dont mean with smack talking. It may often look like a good stick is just getting lucky or the enemy is making mistake when really the good stick knew exactly what the other was thinking long before the trap was set.

Low 190D9. high niki instantly thinks 'my kill' and 'he will run'
these two thoughts are almost always safe to assume of the niki pilot right now. so knowing this, what will you do?

1) you let him think you are 'his kill' as long as possible before making a move. less time for him to react and correct his aim or think about the coming three seconds ahead of his attack. We know exactly what he is thinking and we also know he has no clue what we are planning. this advantage in the mind is worth far far more than the inequities of the two aircraft.

2)He thinks you will run? that is obviously a good time not to run made even better for every second the enemy thinks you will run before you dont run. Diving away is, as you mentioned, an effective tactic. make them catch the chase bug then go for the overshoot. 99% of the time when a Dora puts its nose down 99% of the pilots fighting it would nose down and put on full wep to keep with the bugger.


once you learn to put yourself in your opponent's possition and assume his thoughts you will always be once step ahead of the con with the advantage.

check the 262 vs typhoon film i posted earlier for a perfect example. typh expects the jet to run, as soon as 262 makes the choice to fight against the typh's most prominant expectations the plane type becomes totaly irrelavent. It becomes a question of who is thinking faster and reacting quicker in the four or five dimensional chess game that dogfighting is.

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Additional Note: alot of this relates to free for all style MA gameplay.

when you fight a duel vs someone else in a cold head on merge it becomes very much less about using advantages against someone or using trickery to gain possition. The brain activity in a 'fair' 1 on 1 fight is monsterous compared to anything teh MA offers that is not a direct equal 1 on 1 that may randomly turn up. In a duel you cannot always rely on your assumptions of what your opponent is thinking.

Equal pilots in the duel outfly each other more often than outsmart or outdweeb them. The polar opposite is true of the main arenas.

[reeb]

i didnt mean to sound like a jerk but some of us get sick of seeing things like this. to me it looked like your a 1 trick pony and you didnt try anything but climb climb climb cuz the la7 made his turn to fight while you climbed up to avoid the fight. And ive seen alot of people turn fight in a d9 ALOT. If you dont try to do those things you will never learn, Any plane can turn you just have to try todo it or you will never learn it. using tactics like this in the MA are very good tactics but the DA is about pushing your planes to its limits and you didnt come close to doing that. if i say p40 almost everyone will say easy kill but i have alot of films of my p40 out turning fm2's spits, hurris, zekes. i only learned how to win those fights cuz i wasnt afraid to turn with a supiror plane. and this is far from a training vid it shows nothing that is helpful....like i said noobs can bnz so everyone should know how to pull this move off with ease. see what i mean by not being much of a training vid and it dont really belong in this thread...this is why there is a films and screenshots section. also you say you have yet to accomplish out turn fighting an la7 in a d9...your not gonna learn how if you dont try. And if there is an existing thread about this why didnt you just post there? why start another pointless thread? this is another reason alot of new guys threads get ignored. i have nothing agenst you but i found this thread a waste of time and am askin myself why im bothering to post in it. 

[mechanic]

  Reeb. was not aimed at anyone personal like. i know my words often come out laced with inuendo i assure you i do not hint at things when being serious about stuff.  Yenny was asking for this reaction intentionaly or not with his attitude.

what he has accomplished is in drawing many good generous people here to hurl abuse when widely speaking they do not hurl abuse at people ever.

this is the combined strain of two things:

Firstly many of us watching the game we have loved for up to a decade in some cases deteriate before our eyes and the gamepay we relish spasm violently in its dying agony under the boot of invevitable change.

Secondly there is probably no one on the forums who doesnt already play the oldschool method that is listening to our cries of anguish. Yenny is simply a lamb into the ravernous wolf pack that we have become.

[reeb]

Much respect bat <S> but i was being a jerk sorta.

ok yenny here is a suggestion: next time edit the film to show the highlights of the film and maybe you will get better responses. watch this if  you wanna see what i mean

[BnZ]

I haven't seen Yenny's film that started this thread, because I can't get the format it is to work. (When I put the new hard drive back in this computer, about all I re-installed was AHII and programs nessecary to run it.) I would like to see the video posted in .ahf format so I can download it. From what you guys were saying, I thought the D9 ran a sector. From his description, it sounds more like the D9 used a spiral climb. Yenny says it was an La7, Widewing says it was in fact an La5, which also changes the dynamics of the thing. Since I haven't seen the film, I can't say.

BTW, noobs CANNOT BnZ. I am abit weary of such statements. They can One Pass, Haul the Arse, although they are likely to auger. OPHA is not BnZ, it is a lack of the knowledge or the opportunity to use true BnZ tactics.  Learning to judge energy and use the vertical to fly your plane to a gun solution on a maneuvering plane who has a clue is at least twice as difficult compared to just reducing your throttle and saddling up with an equal or superior turning airplane. The gun solutions you get are 10 times more difficult IMHO. Since, as far as i can tell, most pilots you will find in the MA have no idea how to E-fight their Ponys or Doras, and mostly OPHA, if Yenny's film shows any worthy basic E fighting technique, for educational purposes alone.

Mechanic: Like I said, I watched all the films, including the 262 vrs. the Typh. You have to admit that the film was showed a confluence of amazing skill on the one hand and amazing incompetence on the other. I full well understand the principle that with a 450MPH Niki and a 350 mph D9, for that MOMENT in time, the D9 is the angles fighter...I wonder, does the Niki know he's the E fighter? Having flown e-fighters, I would know that in his place. I always work under the assumption the opponent knows at least as much as I do until proven wrong...they don't hang "noob" signs on the icons or anything you know.

You watch the film I posted of A5vrsLa7 duelling? Relatively new player in my squad. Know how many times he made the same mistakes and let me do that to him? Exactly twice. He is now fairly well proofed against loosing turning fights against 190s. Doesn't take all that much.

I recently watched a film of some fellow bringing down I think it was five enemy fighters in a 109, right? Interesting thing is that 3 of these kills were augers by pilots trying to bnz his 109 in MORE maneuverable fighters...Spits and Corsairs. Anyone of them could easily had the kill with a little throttle control. Once again, there was a confluence of skill and unskill, with a little bit of luck, which leads to an amazing victory, but it falls more under the heading of "sometimes you step in something" good than "this is how you SHOULD be flying your 109 you miserable pudknocker." Now if the 109 had come in with a little alt, patiently maintained his E, and killed all five by hanging them up to dry one by one, that is a tactic which one can reasonably expect to work as advertised under most conditions. Perhaps some of you would have said "boring", but what can I say, I'm a patient man, used to play chess, what is boring to many is fascinating to me. My idea of an "ideal" fight is not the sweaty-palmed heart-thumping thing some mention...it is a fight where I out-think my opponent so well that he never really stands a chance in the first place. That is my goal with all my technical study in this game...perhaps therein lies the difference in attitude.

[Yenny]

I uploaded the *.ahf file of the fight, here it is http://files.filefront.com/190D9vLa7ahf/;10092241;/fileinfo.html

On another note I just spent 250$ getting a Saitek X52 set, and the saitek rudder pedal *cheer*

[mechanic]

you make some excelent points BnZ and valid too. It is the artistic and rapid manipulation of the opponents weakness that defines your progress. you miss one chance in a 3 on 1 and youre going down. progress is not just in making that kill but even moreso in consistency, imo. I will go take a look at your A5 film sounds interesting.

"this is how you SHOULD be flying your 109 you miserable pudknocker."

hehe this made me laugh.


these mistakes made by attackers are often exagerated by how well the defender knows his neg E game.

How about then when it is two very good pilots against a single fighter?


mosquito vs 2

the same tactics can often look just as effortless when performed correctly on widely celebrated and well known skillfull players.
 

[BnZ]

Okay, I just watched it, and I've got to wonder what crawled up the butts of the nitpickers posting to this thread.

Yenny engaged the La7 co-alt and with less speed. Despite this, he used the vertical and conserved E while the La7 wasted abit on the merge. Yenny built an E-advantage while never getting more than 2K, away, Hell, I don't think he even got 1.5K from the La7. He then whacked the thing with what constitutes some pretty elite gunnery, as least compared to me. He did this in about 2 mins and 30s seconds from the merge. You guys really get excessively bored in 2 mins and 30seconds? Boy, t.v. must have really done a number on your attention spans.

The only thing questionable aspect of the fight is that the La7 had enough energy to follow the D9 up and make the shot, if he had pushed it. But the La7 driver apparently didn't know that, and winning based on the opponent's mistake is what it's all about.

Widewing, I'm going to have to single you out especially.

This comment in regards to Yenny's film "That was a duel like two old ladies at a stoplight are drag racers...." does not mesh with your advice in this very thread two pages later...

"What you should have done was carry more speed than he could manage into the merge. You were not using WEP to build speed. Use WEP to take off, and leave it on. You could have had nearly 400 mph before the merge. Don't immediately reverse off the merge, but extend about 1.0k to 1.5k and convert into the vertical. Cmustard blew most of his E on the reverse. You would have the advantage of altitude and E, then you can fight your Dora to its strengths. From here on, killing Cmustard would be easy as long as you maintain the tactical advantage. Drag him higher, bleed every bit of E out of his fighter, than drop in and kill it.

If you allow E states to equalize, the La-5FN will eat the Dora for lunch."

So you are lambasting Yenny for attempting to fly his airplane using almost exactly the same strategy you advise someone to use a few posts later, build and keep an E advantage. These are also almost exactly the same tactics you showed me to use in a 190A5 vrs. a Hurri, used to have a nice long film of you showing me how the FW could continuously make passes and take shots while maintaining its E,  and rope the Hurri anytime it tried to go nose up to follow, something you are very skilled at...guess those were unmanly wussy tactics to use in a fighter, and I should forget about them though, correct?

This trend towards total rejection of energy fighting is absurd. If we follow it long enough, the Val will eventually become the unbeatable uber-fighter of the game, at least until the Sopwith Camel is introduced...  BTW, I would suggest that if we don't want people using spiral climb, it should not be listed as a valid tactic on so many flight sim ACM websites.

[Yenny]

I think a lot of the fight will require exploitation of opponent's mistake. D9 vs. La7, the La-7 out performance the D-9 in almost every way. As for using the D9's advantage, it's very limited. The only thing left to gain the upper hand is hammering the mistake the other pilot make. TnB in this situation would almost be a 90% chance of a lost, so why bother? This is a duel to find who win, not a practice sessions to try and get better in TnB using a D9. With 90% you will lose if you TnB what will it teach ya? don't tnb w/ la-7? There's only so much a pilot can do with his plane against another. Take the plane out of the equation and it will be pilot vs pilot, and the winner will be the pilot that can spot for the opponent's mistake and exploit it.

[BnZ]

the same tactics can often look just as effortless when performed correctly on widely celebrated and well known skillfull players.
 

Watched it. Don't think the 190 is WingZero's primary plane. Lost his energy trying to follow a better-turning plane around, once he's overshot and trying to angles fight the Mossie, doesn't stand much chance. No disrespect to him, I've done my share of boneheaded things pulling for a kill too hard. No disrespect to you, but if WingZero had been flying his N1K, his reactions might have been more appropriate, and the outcome of the fight different.

[Redd]

Reeb.

what he has accomplished is in drawing many good generous people here to hurl abuse when widely speaking they do not hurl abuse at people ever.

this is the combined strain of two things:

Firstly many of us watching the game we have loved for up to a decade in some cases deteriate before our eyes and the gamepay we relish spasm violently in its dying agony under the boot of invevitable change.

Secondly there is probably no one on the forums who doesnt already play the oldschool method that is listening to our cries of anguish. Yenny is simply a lamb into the ravernous wolf pack that we have become.

Think Batty has nailed it here.

All new players should be made fly an angle/turnfighter for their first 6 -12 months so they are forced to learn some ACM.   It would way improve the average quality of player and fights. They jump in a d9 try to do something interesting in it once - get killed  - so quickly assume the correct way to do things is to fly around at 400 mph BNZ'ing and Ho and go. 

[BaldEagl]

progress is not just in making that kill but even moreso in consistency, imo.

No, progress is in consistancy regardless of the plane.  Still my biggest problem but I keep working on it.

[mechanic]

yeah, i agree BE. Another progress as you mention is to stop being 'plane dependant' and start thinking about  who the other pilot is not what he is in. For me now there are two plane i do not know like the back of my hand. the yaks and the 190s. my only concern between any other aircraft is which has the preferable guns for the job at hand.

[mechanic]

Watched it. Don't think the 190 is WingZero's primary plane. Lost his energy trying to follow a better-turning plane around, once he's overshot and trying to angles fight the Mossie, doesn't stand much chance. No disrespect to him, I've done my share of boneheaded things pulling for a kill too hard. No disrespect to you, but if WingZero had been flying his N1K, his reactions might have been more appropriate, and the outcome of the fight different.

who cares about what wingzero was flying, he just got roped whilst i was trying to rope the A8.  Anyone in a D9 and an A8 can beat a co-alt mossy 2 on 1. Do you really think that every time someone displays a small piece of cartoon flying genius through luck or skill that it means the enemy has got to make gross mistakes? the time to react is minimal when the moves are correct.

did you not see the second kill? the very vast majority of players flying something huge like a mosquito would have given up and died when they looked back and saw a 190A8 at 200 yrds. but no, instant reaction and the decision that negative energy is how to win this fight. The split second the con is ID'ed the counter kicks in though instinct. Some times an attacker can do everything in his power correctly and the deffender still comes out on top. One of thse days i hope everyone realises the E does not = life everytime.

[gpwurzel]

I learnt that little conundrum early when we fought in the DA Bat - never forgotten it. I still make stupid mistakes (dont think I'll ever stop that bit) - but hey, its all fun right 


Wurzel