D9 v. La7 Duel

[Urchin]

Yenny, watch the La-5 film I posted earlier in the thread. You'll see flat turning on the deck, you'll see energy maneuvering in the vertical. What you won't see is the other guy have time to catch his breath. The other guy was flying a fighter that turns much smaller circles than the La-5. It got him nothing. Why? Because, there are simply ways to counter that advantage (more than counter it).

My regards,

Widewing

Two completely different scenarios Widewing.  The La-5 can build up E faster than the F4U, and turn tightly enough that it won't be blown away a circle and a half into an E-bleeding circlejerk.  The 190 has no advantage over an La-7.  If a D-9 (much less any other 190) tries a one circle 'bleed', the La will simply demolish it.  The only real hope a 190 pilot has against an La-7 is that the La-7 pilot is a complete and utter fool who doesn't even have rudimentary knowledge of ACM or even basic knowledge of how to bludgeon a much inferior plane to death.

Let me try to sum this up using a more simple example.  Lets say you have two people.  Person A is a 25th degree blackbelt in 19 different martial arts, and has in fact kicked God's bellybutton in a 1v1 sparring match.  Person B is a short, overweight civilian with no combat training at all. 

First scenario - Person A and Person B meet in a 1v1 deathmatch... unarmed... well lit 10x10 room with no furniture and a sealed door as the only exit.  Both men are dumped in at the same time, and are fully conscious and ready to fight when the match starts.  Who wins?

Second scenario - Same as the first, except the room is 100x100.  Who wins now? 

Third scenario - Same as the second, except person B has a fully automatic shotgun with a 32 round clip.  Who do you think would win this one? 

The La-7 is the shotgun... and it makes all the difference.

[BnZ]

I don't feel anything mechanic. I just think you are very wrong on one specific point...that in a dissimilar plane encounter, the guy in the less maneuverable plane trying to apply E fighting tactics against a superior angles fighter has an easier problem to solve. Perhaps if you are the gunnery god...

Since YOU brought it up,  people who think words like "bravery, courage, guts, cowardice" apply to a computer game need to get a life. I mean this in the least offensive way possible. I know you have been playing a long time, have alot of skill at this little game...but it still is all pixels, nothing you or I do in it will ever require courage or guts. I'm not a soldier or a policeman, but I do work for a living...making myself roll out of bed in the morning and put on my boots requires a heckuva lot more courage than this game. If there is anyone out there who has lost sight of this fact, please take a long break from this game, for your own mental health.

[mechanic]

he does have an easier problem to solve, nothing will kill him if he simply flies off home at 15k.

[Yenny]

Calm down gentlemen, we're suppose to discuss ACM. Let's cool down on the smashing, no need for it. We seen enough on 200. Let's try to keep it clean here and have a good discussion.

[Urchin]

BnZ -

I think a lot of us who have played the game for a looooong looooong time have passed the point where having a K/D that is impossible to calculate means anything.  Does that mean we have more fun than those whose mantra is 'fly to live, F the rest'?  Doubt it.  Probably most of us have less fun, simply because it is far easier to frustrate someone who enjoys fighting than it is to frustrate someone who only cares about living.  

If you pass someone and you both run away, you are satisfied because you got to stay alive.  If it happens 9 out of 10 times you see someone, you are still satisfied - after all, you will have plenty of opportunity to gather kills by cherrypicking, vulching, etc. (with 'you' being the general 'you', not you personally BnZ).  Every time I see someone in a better plane fly over me without even trying to engage (or worse, set up to make one halfassed pass and run when they realize I'm not AFK), I get a little more frustrated.  

I haven't even flown in the MA in about two months - I hang out in the furball lake area of the DA now.  I used to try to castigate people for flying timidly, but I've come to the realization that it really doesn't matter.  The game has gone past the point of no return as far as "air combat" goes.  It will never really be about air combat again, in my opinion.  The best shot this game has now is to flesh out the ground game and market it as a true combined arms simulation.  Any new player who come into the game expecting to see anything like people fighting it out in the air will be sorely dissapointed, and probably won't stick around.  On the other hand, a player who comes in looking for a "war simulation" (where the emphasis is on attacking your 'opponent' where he isn't in a meta-campaign) will be eminently satisfied - provided there exist other arms that are sufficiently fleshed out (armor, artillery.. I think infantry is a bit outside the scope of the engine of this game).

[BnZ]

Urchin, now I'm the one lost. Why reject an opportunity to destroy another airplane when you stand a reasonable chance? I will not lie, I'll take to my heels with like 3 spits on my tail. I'll also shoot anybody who doesn't have friendlies on his tail already, if he never sees me coming, so much the better. I'm not much for the vulching, strafing ground targets is hard, but I've done it. OTOH, I've been known to destroy a few Spits and the like 1v1 in a Dora. I'm just a hack I guess, but I do like to kill things enough to bother with studying the art/technical side of things.

True enough, the MA is no place to find respecters of clean merges or 1v1s and all that good stuff. Maybe thats bad, but what can you do about it?  When it comes to the MA, you can either get mad about how people fly or fly to get even-pay back every single dirty trick in kind, with interest, and never give a sucker an even break. (But at the same time, don't whine/rant/fight/name call on 200 or the BBS because luck went against you and you got into corner you couldn't get out of.)

You want fair fights, DA is open 24/7. Hell, I'll go with you sometime if you feel like teaching a hack a trick or two.

(BTW, I don't understand the purpose of that furball lake in the DA...it recreates the ills of the MA so perfectly, starts so many arguements, leads to so much BS on chan1, that I just squelch it most of the time that I'm in there practicing/farting around with the squad...but I digress.)

Mechanic: Ah, quit being so coy now , you know what I mean. You know no one ever flew home happy after having to extend-the natural desire is send the so-and-so spinning into the ground in flames!-and that ain't as easy as you are making out, in an E fighter vrs an angles fighter type match. The urge to simply pull hard, put the pipper on the foe, kill now! must be tempered, and it is hard to suppress. Why else do we tell new players to start out with Spits, N1Ks, other rides near the turner end of the spectrum? Because it is the most basic and intuitive way of fighting.

[Widewing]

Two completely different scenarios Widewing. 

I know, I wasn't intending for La-5 fight to be an example for flying the 190. It was meant to demonstrate that you can integrate angles and E fighting to get the desired result.

I spent four hours flying with Yenny tonight, and he impressed me. He's been playing for just 2 months and he's already better than 95% of the player base. Given 6 months, he'll be in the top tier. We worked on maneuver fighting, flying Spits, P-38s, F6Fs, Ki-84s, FM-2 and several others.


My regards,

Widewing

[BaldEagl]

I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel."  My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.

That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.

You contradict yourself.  Your second statement is correct, your first statement is nearly worthless.

No, there is no contradiction.

Yenny had other options.  He could have initiated a flat or rolling scissors, a vertical reverse or even dumped flaps and hauled the nose around (worse of the options).  I bet that, given the fact that the La followed him into a rope, he would have overshot in three of these four scenarios (probably not the vertical reverse) putting Yenny on the offensive.

I've pulled these in the MA on numerous occasions in an A8 no less, and most of the MA pilots don't even know what's happening until it's too late.  Of course, the better ones do.

So, if Yenny went into the TA against Widewing or into the MA against you or Bat (Yenny in the La, you or Widewing in the D9) I don't think he'd have a chance in h***.

You against Widewing in La vs D9?  Whoever's in the La wins.  See... no contradiction.

Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA.  Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths.  It was "smart flying".  It was not, however, what one expects in a duel. 

Note the statement in bold. What a silly and utterly arbitrary splitting of hairs. It is a great tactic, but Yenny
shouldn't have used it? Please! 

I'm sorry BnZ but Yenny posted this as a duel.  If that's the way he duels then he won't have many takers when he asks someone to the DA.  This wasn't a duel... period.

I've been dismayed by the VERY long list of things and tactics that are so vehemently scorned in this game.  It's to the point that it seems like better then half of the aircraft are "dweeb rides".  Spits...  Lalas...  Runstangs...  etc etc.

I don't think anyone here scorns the way Yenny won his fight.  Only in the way that it was portrayed in his initial post.

please do not expect me to believe you think TnB means flat turns on the deck only.
oh lord.

[Yenny]

Yenny had other options.  He could have initiated a flat or rolling scissors, a vertical reverse or even dumped flaps and hauled the nose around (worse of the options).  I bet that, given the fact that the La followed him into a rope, he would have overshot in three of these four scenarios (probably not the vertical reverse) putting Yenny on the offensive.

Scissor and do what? all the LA have to do is chop throttle to prevent overshot and saddle in for an easy kill.

So, if Yenny went into the TA against Widewing or into the MA against you or Bat (Yenny in the La, you or Widewing in the D9) I don't think he'd have a chance in h***.

If I was in the La? I don't know about that. I'd think I have a good chance of taking anyone down in La v. D9.

[Widewing]

ok here it is. First off Creton is one of the best sticks in the game.


Fight 1

start was co-E or close enough. it looks like you are slower, but infact Creton is flat out at his merge speed and you have already 'merge' and burnt easily 40mph.

Your merge is unfair. you only do it as you know Creton is too good to shoot.

This is a view from Creton's aircraft as you pull up 200 yrds ahead of the merge.

Creton was fudging his merge by turning prior to passing. A turning merge gives you the advantage of having a turn established and presents an angle advantage as they pass. BnZs foiled it by going nose up before they passed. Perfectly legit when the other guy is already maneuvering. An equal merge is when both have wings level.

Fight 2

You had a large energy advantage that can only be gained by diving from some altitude above the deck. Creton has aprroximately the standard spitfire Vb level flight merge speed on the deck. It is impossible to get a screenshot of 'merge speed' with these two fights as you did the same trick the second time. again, this is a view from Creton's cockpit at this time about 90 yrds before even you have crossed paths..

However, note that Creton's nose is also well above the horizon. BnZ looks like he pulled up first, but he was higher to begin. Both began nosing up  at about the same time. No advantage to either pilot's merge this time, as they both began transitioning to the vertical prior to passing.

Again, in the main arena creton has his guns on you now.

Why, is there different physics in the MA? If he can't get guns on him here, how would being in the MA be any different?

look at your speed! and that is after pulling a high G loop from 200 yrds before you even merge with creton. this time he is getting used to your trick merge and acts smartly. But, because you somehow horded a huge ammount of speed before the 'merge' you just about manage to escape.  Note that in this screen shot again you have pulled a hih G loop very early, so add between 30-50mph on both counts putting your initial 'merge' speed at around 380mph.
Had you started with even half as much advantage creton would have saddled up and made a shot.

Whose fault is it that Creton carried less speed into the fight? Both pilots had opportunity to build speed. I suspect that BnZ climbed higher. If there was no altitude cap agreed to, I don't see a problem. Creton was pursuing in the vertical with his flaps down, burning E like crazy to go for the shot. He missed... He died. That's the price of blowing every bit of E for a low percentage shot and missing it. All of us have done that on occasion. BnZ was doing 366 mph just before the merge. Creton appeared to rapidly slow about 15 mph (from 313 to 298) just before the merge, apparently hoping that BnZ would pop out in front on the reverse. However, BnZ had much more E than expected, thwarting Creton's plan.

I don't know why you are beating on BnZ, he did a very respectable job in these duels.


My regards,

Widewing