Re: New 109

[Anaxogoras]

Quit whining.

Be polite.  It doesn't bring credit on our community when spirited yet rational arguments are labeled "whining."  In fact, the all-purpose "whining" insult is frequently used at this bbs in place of counter-argument simply because many are not in the habit of giving one.  This isn't high-school.  Use your reason to convince a thinking adult or keep your unhelpful comments to yourself.

[Bruv119]

gavagai in terms of gameplay and variety HTC's decision was crucial to make the 109's MORE popular.

With the 109 G10 you had a variant every average flyer could agree with.  Big guns, lots of ammo and UBER speed/climb (see la7).

If you got lusche in here to compare the amount of usage of the 109 planeset I bet you more than 60% would have gone straight to the G10 without any thought to the other 109's.  The same could be said for the spit 16 of course.

I just think having two different planes is more beneficial than having one UBER and I know thats what your getting at.

Wrag needs to get some practice with the 30mm and after flying the G14 / K4 this last week I had no problems in getting used to hitting with the tater and the G14's firepower is just devastating.

[Bronk]

Be polite.  It doesn't bring credit on our community when spirited yet rational arguments are labeled "whining."  In fact, the all-purpose "whining" insult is frequently used at this bbs in place of counter-argument simply because many are not in the habit of giving one.  This isn't high-school.  Use your reason to convince a thinking adult or keep your unhelpful comments to yourself.

Hello pot... this is kettle... you are black.

  Imagine the moaning and gnashing of teeth if any spitfire were removed and replaced with 2 others...

Your implications with the above are quite transparent. Ohh and as for your smug keep comments to yourself BS. I refer you to line 2 of my sig. 

Lemme point that out for you.

What you should be doing is petitioning HT to make the offline drones give out polite replies....lazs

Edit : Nice evade of my point. However a whine about people wanting people to stop whining is not a valid retort.
Try again champ. 

[Anaxogoras]

Bronk, you are incorrigible.  Almost nothing you have said above is relevant to the discussion at hand.  Read what bruv had to say for insight on how to disagree with someone and at the same time display rationality and civility.  Trying to construe the spitfire comment as though I accused someone of whining is about the least charitable way possible to read me, and if you interpret me uncharitably, you're not to be taken seriously.

[Anaxogoras]

gavagai in terms of gameplay and variety HTC's decision was crucial to make the 109's MORE popular.

With the 109 G10 you had a variant every average flyer could agree with.  Big guns, lots of ammo and UBER speed/climb (see la7).

If you got lusche in here to compare the amount of usage of the 109 planeset I bet you more than 60% would have gone straight to the G10 without any thought to the other 109's.  The same could be said for the spit 16 of course.

I just think having two different planes is more beneficial than having one UBER and I know thats what your getting at.

Wrag needs to get some practice with the 30mm and after flying the G14 / K4 this last week I had no problems in getting used to hitting with the tater and the G14's firepower is just devastating.

So now is your argument that a G-10 would be too "uber?"  Or is it that it's more beneficial for the game not to have the G-10?  Correct me if I'm wrong or clarify your statement, please.  When you speak of the 109G-10 or G-14 having devastating firepower, you must be talking about them with the Mk-108 loaded, and we already know what the drawbacks are to that.

[Nilsen]

Just give us the G10 and The 410 and everyone is happy.

(by everyone I mean me, and thats what REALLY matters) 

[Bruv119]

It was to Uber!   

I remember looking back and seeing a 109 homing in on me, i'd bust a move, they would blow past and go orbital.  Think more turnable Tempest with bigger guns  .

if the icon read 109 you can bet 8/10 times it would read G10!

Im not dead set against seeing it re-appear by all means put it back in and slap a 20 point perk and give it eny 5.  My point is that with 2 different planes there isn't a need to perk or reduce the ENY for it.  The 109's have a reputation for not being "easy mode" planes and I think quite a few luftwobblers take pride in that.

[wrag]

Rino's right.

Wrag's blowing things way out or proportion, especially with his decision to make this a personal thing against me.

I TOLD you while we were ONLINE, via VOX, flying in the SAME area, it was NOT personal!

I object to your SEEMING attitude that YOU are the ONLY person that SEEMS to know anything about WWII aircraft, and your REPEATED claim that similar is the SAME!

Similar means NOT the same!

K4 fastest 450+ at alt, G10 close 425 but about 20-25 mph slower, then the G14 at 408?

( I have yet to get a G14 to do 408 at 16K which is it's reported best alt? )

( If you or anyone can get a G14 to 408 at 16k PLEASE FILM IT, the entire attempt and post the film? )

( I consider any diving, shallow or otherwise, to get to the speed of 408 as NOT being accurate performance! )

Not blowing anything anywhere.

Just tired of your B.S. Krusty thats all.

You don't want a G10, fine you said that.

Now everyone knows..... OK?

OTHERS however SEEM to want a G10.........

How about you allow others their OPINION?

How about you allow others to put in a REQUEST?

What is YOUR PROBLEM?

Similar is NOT the SAME!

Lets you and me go up above 18K or 20K you in a G14 (with 30mm) and me in say a pony or maybe a Ki84?  Then again maybe I'll fly a G6?

And the one that gets shot down or DIVES below 16K loses?

What do you think your chances are going to be?

The G14 is sorta OK down LOW alt.  The K4 is fine at any alt but that STOOPID 30mm is a real turn off to really GOOD fights!

Lately I've been flyin the G6 and keeping UP with, and shooting down, G14s OTD and at alt....  PERFORMANCE is VERY CLOSE with these 2 planes.  Perhaps the G6 accelerates a tad faster then the g14 OTD?

READ.........

http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/Bf109K4.htm

this part in particular...

"If jumped by a K-4 be very aware of the firepower and make your defensive maneuvers erratic and unpredictable. Many very good pilots fly the K-4 and won’t miss simple defensive maneuvers."

Stick stirring EXTREMES 

My point is the with a G10 added, that HAS a 20mm hub option, would be a WONDERFUL thing!  (then it would be......try your stick stirring now DWEEB!)

Or allow the 20mm hub option on the K4 (ya right...)

Now.......... how about you find something else to do and leave those that WANT the G10 to discuss such things and PERHAPS persuade, plead, BRIBE????  HiTech and company?

[Nilsen]

The 109's have a reputation for not being "easy mode" planes and I think quite a few luftwobblers take pride in that.

Good point 

[wrag]

gavagai in terms of gameplay and variety HTC's decision was crucial to make the 109's MORE popular.

With the 109 G10 you had a variant every average flyer could agree with.  Big guns, lots of ammo and UBER speed/climb (see la7).

If you got lusche in here to compare the amount of usage of the 109 planeset I bet you more than 60% would have gone straight to the G10 without any thought to the other 109's.  The same could be said for the spit 16 of course.

I just think having two different planes is more beneficial than having one UBER and I know thats what your getting at.

Wrag needs to get some practice with the 30mm and after flying the G14 / K4 this last week I had no problems in getting used to hitting with the tater and the G14's firepower is just devastating.

Who you fightin with those?

IMHO you are a pretty good stick soooooo...............

You see much of this..............

"If jumped by a K-4 be very aware of the firepower and make your defensive maneuvers erratic and unpredictable. Many very good pilots fly the K-4 and won’t miss simple defensive maneuvers."

Quote takin from here....

http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/Bf109K4.htm


Let's you and me go up over 18K

You in a 30mm G14 or K4 and me in anything I want, BUT a PERKED ride, and see who comes down first?

Hmmm how about the same offer I made Krusty?

[Bruv119]

how many fights occur over 18k in the MA?  very few.

If you would like I'll fight you.   

The only perked ride that would outmatch a K4 would be the spit 14 and maybe a TA152 or pony even higher.

[Gremlin3]

I would like a G10 because I like Me 109's but as the game is now having a K ( High Altitude Interceptor ) and G 14 all around fighter doesn't matter all that much. I think the German's were happy with whatever equipment they could get. The pro's had first call on new equipment and the newbies got what was left. Toward the end I guess a G14 or G10 were better because of the multiple missions asked of German aircraft.

[Bronk]

Bronk, you are incorrigible.  Almost nothing you have said above is relevant to the discussion at hand.  Read what bruv had to say for insight on how to disagree with someone and at the same time display rationality and civility.  Trying to construe the spitfire comment as though I accused someone of whining is about the least charitable way possible to read me, and if you interpret me uncharitably, you're not to be taken seriously.

And yet no comparison and contrast of the removal Mk V VS the G-10. Yup folks we have  another tap dancer. 

Just so ya know Fred Astaire I'm not apposed to reintroducing the G-10. What I'd like to know is.... Wasn't the K-4 basically the standardization of the G-10 model? And if so, what model of the G-10 do you reintroduce?

[NoBaddy]

Rino's right.

Krusty...

The above quote would definitely call your sanity into question. 

[Anaxogoras]

And yet no comparison and contrast of the removal Mk V VS the G-10. Yup folks we have  another tap dancer. 

Did we even mention the Mk V in this thread?  No.  Some argue with logic, others just use name calling like 12 year olds.

Just so ya know Fred Astaire I'm not apposed to reintroducing the G-10. What I'd like to know is.... Wasn't the K-4 basically the standardization of the G-10 model? And if so, what model of the G-10 do you reintroduce?

And after giving me such a hard time, now you admit that you need to know more about the topic to make a meaningful contribution.  Wow.

The K-4 was a standardization of the G-10, but the K-4 had the 605DCM engine and used higher octane c3 fuel (~2000hp), while the G-10 used the 605DBM or DM engine with b4 fuel (~1800hp).  Some G-10s were also produced with the 605AS engine with the larger supercharger of the DB603, and were designated G-10/AS.

Like other Gustavs, the G-10 was sometimes equipped to carry bombs or underwing gondolas, while the K-4 was a pure interceptor.

Lastly, the G10 saw service with either the Mk-108 30mm or the MG-151 20mm cannon.  If it were reintroduced to AH, players could choose like they already do with the G-14.

One of the things that drives wrag crazy is the lack of the G-10 for scenarios, and he has a point that should be taken seriously; while it is true that most 109s in service at the end of the war were Gustavs, they did not all have the performance of the G-14.  Specifically, where the G-14 lags at altitudes above 20k ft, a huge number of Gustavs were G-14/AS or G-10 variants with better high altitude performance.  Representing this distribution in a scenario with only the K-4 and G-14 will always be open to criticism, and rightly so.