Why don't you guys have a dogfighting school?

[BaldEagl]

    Forget "dogfighting".  Flyers who dogfight (especially solo, without a wingman) are just sitting ducks.   If you have to resort to dogfighting to stay alive...  you botched picking your target in the first place.  Dogfighting is a maneuver of last resort.  If you don't ENTER an engagement ALREADY IN a position of advantage, you really shouldn't be engaging the enemy to begin with. 
    For instance. The target you're looking for is some guy isolated from his friends. The kind of guy who likes flying over the top of inexperienced pilots who are under their own flak VULCHING their own field.   You come in at 4 thousand feet above this guy diving on him out of the sun and blow him out of the air.  He's fixated on the half a dozen vulchers under him.  I love this tactic because it has the added benefit of pissing off the vulchers who were hoping for a dogfight where they could run and hide under their own flak when things get tough.
    What if you miss ?  Or you only damage the other guys plane ?  You do what any REAL fighter pilot would do.  You use your dive energy to climb back up to a safe altitude and you fly home to get more bullets.  You don't resort to a dogfight.

It's precisely this type of attitude that has brought a bit of a decline to the game.

For a n00b, you attempt to speak with a lot of authority around here.  You're unwilling to learn to take off from/land on turning CV's and you promote only fighting from an advantage in every post.  Then, you say that fighting from a disadvantage will only get you killed.  You are SO wrong.

I spent all of last camp dogfighting.  I had over 4.5 K/D and over 1.5 K/S and I'm not among the top sticks by any means.  How are you doing?

As stated above, if you don't want to "fight" you're going to miss out on the best part of this game, but to each their own.  You'll continue to be timid gun fodder for the best sticks.

[SIK1]

Some of the most satisfying fights that I have ever had come from being at a disadvantage the more of a disadvantage the more gratifying it is when you win.

Do I get shot down a lot? Sure, but who cares. I don't really die, and I get a new plane every time I up.

Just for the record when I'm not flying with my squad I'm flying solo without a wingman. I'm also usually flying on the side with fewest numbers.

stephon waldron if all you do is cherry pick, and vulch then you will never get much out of this game.

[Delirium]

if all you do is cherry pick, and vulch then you will never get much out of this game.

They'll get exactly what they want but will remain timid and will make Sesame Street characters look aggressive. Think of everyday in the main arena as training and train as you fight.

I respect the pilot that attempts to mix it up, rather than the 'One pass, haul a**' pilot in AH.

(now in scenarios, that is another discussion altogether but that is 8-10 hours a year)

[Saxman]

Rich,

I disagree with you on two counts:

First, about 99% of the DA pilots sit at 20k in fast rides and do nothing but pick or gang-bang, or HO and spray at you from 2k out. It's very rare I get into any sort of 1v1 that lasts more than a turn or two, and I actually have an easier time finding a good, even fight in the Main Arena than in the DA dweebery (I think I said before that DA is where all the 8-player freeloaders went because they can't cut it in the Mains).

Second, the FM-2 ain't ridiculous.

[moot]

The DA has really gotten worse.. A squaddie who had been deployed and otherwise not playing AH in years logged on a few months back and couldn't make sense of the timidity of most of the players in there.

[Adonai]

Rich,

I disagree with you on two counts:

First, about 99% of the DA pilots sit at 20k in fast rides and do nothing but pick or gang-bang, or HO and spray at you from 2k out. It's very rare I get into any sort of 1v1 that lasts more than a turn or two, and I actually have an easier time finding a good, even fight in the Main Arena than in the DA dweebery (I think I said before that DA is where all the 8-player freeloaders went because they can't cut it in the Mains).

Second, the FM-2 ain't ridiculous.

I Refused to DA for long time because of this, if certain veteran pilots wanted to go, by all means im willing to learn anything I can. But for everyday squeaker to scream DA I refuse on grounds half them dont know what they are doing and its rather pointless.
I always say to everyone best things to learn in training arena are a few rules:

1) Situational Awareness, Even when your the lone con, behind someone always check your 6 because its the one you "didnt see" that gets you. Knowing whats around you, who has what advantage ( for example a 190 5k above you) or spitfire co-alt infront at 6k out in front of you - who would be a bigger threat in the next 30 seconds?

2) Know your ride - inside and out, most guys say 190a8 sucks it cant fight or 109 sucks it cant fight, simply overload the plane with fuel and guns thinking HEY!! big guns means better plane, then wonder why they cant even dogfight bombers. Learn what rides can do what, speed, fuel, turn ability, snapshots

3) Biggest killer in new players - refusing to learn to dogfight, Boom and Zoom might be an easy tactic to learn since it offers the safest tactic of them all: Get lots of alt, and speed and take one pass and run. You will never learn to fight like this, However I ways state learn 2 rides:
Something like a Spitfire 8 for dogfight training, and lets say a Fw190d9 for BnZ training. This way a player can learn 2 solid planes, and its abilities vs other rides. And if the player gets good enough he can dogfight in the 190d9 and BnZ in the spitfire.

All depends what you want to get out of this game.

[humble]

Most of this ground has been pretty well chewed over...

1) crawl, walk, run

Before you can dogfight you need to be able to control your plane at unusual attitudes, high AoA and in a stall without looking "in" the cockpit. When you can keep your eyes on the other guy 100% of the time in a fight then your ready for prime time.

2) BFM & applied concepts

While doing the "pilot stuff" is essential to win a 1 on 1 with a seasoned "ace" the vast majority of a "dog fight" is really "applied BFM". Your managing relative E state, AOT (angle off Tail) and other fundementals with the intent of either maintaining or achieving an exploitable advantage. In my experience an awful lot of fights are lost because one guy is busy "dogfighting" himself into a losing hand.

3) Aggression is a state of mind

One constant among the "uber" sticks is the total comfort level engaging from an "inferior" position. While they may be defensive they are thinking offense and entirely focused on killing you, not "avoiding" you. Two famous quotes sum up air combat IMO. "Better a mig on my 6 then no mig at all" & "there are two types of aircraft-fighters & targets".

[Rich46yo]

Rich,

I disagree with you on two counts:

First, about 99% of the DA pilots sit at 20k in fast rides and do nothing but pick or gang-bang, or HO and spray at you from 2k out. It's very rare I get into any sort of 1v1 that lasts more than a turn or two, and I actually have an easier time finding a good, even fight in the Main Arena than in the DA dweebery (I think I said before that DA is where all the 8-player freeloaders went because they can't cut it in the Mains).

Second, the FM-2 ain't ridiculous.

I know it aint. But to the BnZ, high speed, type it is.

I never have fought in the DA but its still a surprise to me the same kind od dweebery exists there as in the MAs. It really shouldnt surprise me, not after going in once and seeing some nitwit had hit a bunch of Dars. Why would anyone go into the DA and take out Dars?

It seems the dweebery has steadily increased in the last 6 mos. At least it seems that way to me.

Now there are some BnZ's who actually come to fight. I wouldnt call all BnZer's Dweebs. They are using the strengths of their airplanes and some dont run at first site of a co-alt con.

Im still a little surprised the same dweebery exists in the DA as in the MA however. I thought the entire idea of the arena was for 1 on 1 dogfighting.

[Lye-El]

    Forget "dogfighting".  Flyers who dogfight (especially solo, without a wingman) are just sitting ducks.   If you have to resort to dogfighting to stay alive...  you botched picking your target in the first place.  Dogfighting is a maneuver of last resort.  If you don't ENTER an engagement ALREADY IN a position of advantage, you really shouldn't be engaging the enemy to begin with. 
   

Look down Johnny. See that little plane way down there? Dive on him at 500 mph with guns blazing. You will be a great fighter pilot. If he turns or does anything, Run Johnny, Run like your hair is on fire and your butt is catching. Get 6K away from the dangerous man. Then climb Johnny. Climb to 28k Johnny. Remember Johnny, you are a great fighter pilot. You will be respected by all!

Or you could just go to a Horde capped field and shoot planes on the runway to demonstrate your prowess in a combat plane.

[Rich46yo]

And stick stirrers? Or even worse "stick jerkers". I just killed somone who must have been at home sitting in front of his computer jerking his stick every which way he could like he was.....well...you get my meaning. Finally he jerked his way right into the ground.

I dont get it. Whats the fun of flying these planes in ways completely impossible in actual combat?

I'd rather learn actual dogfight techniques, and fly the aircraft in historically correct fashion, then resort to video game dweebery. Even if it means getting shot down.

I mean this kid must have been jerking that stick like a madman for about 3 mins. I should have filmed it.

[Bruv119]

I mean this kid must have been jerking that stick like a madman for about 3 mins. I should have filmed it.

Sounds like Doom's 190   

I take additional pleasure out of sitting in behind and not shooting,  just fly behind them and watch.  They will either crash, get controls stole or end up being a very easy kill.

One thing that does annoy me is the way red outs do not fully red out like black outs do. I'm no expert in what would happen in reality but im sure if something negative G'ed for an extended period, whilst flying really fast, their guts/brains would be all over the cockpit.

[moot]

That's already modeled. Easiest way to do it is in the 163.

[BaldEagl]

What's that crazy floppy move all the n00bs try where they just start spinning and flipping about? 

Anyway, I was on the 6 of an La one day when he tried this.  Oops, I guess no one told him you had to be more than 500' off the deck to try it 

On that note, if you are a n00b the only thing that move is going to do for you is put your plane out of control for a brief period.  Any smart stick with simply cut throttle and fire into the center of your rotation.  I've gotten several kills this way recently.  I LOVE that "move".

[BnZ]

    If you don't ENTER an engagement ALREADY IN a position of advantage, you really shouldn't be engaging the enemy to begin with. 
   

I gotta call BS on this one...what is a "position of disadvantage"? Having more alt and energy is a position of disadvantage if handled improperly. I'm not advocating making yourself into gang-pick bait at the first opportunity, but jeez man, sometimes its wortwhile to give the other guy a chance to make a fatal mistake before you bug out.

[RumbleB]

Go into DA. Challenge someone with a lot of sorties. After he kills you have him tell you what mistakes you made. He's likely smug enough to pour his wealth of knowledge on you.

Being killed and told why you died is the best dogfighting school there is.