Author Topic: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices  (Read 1530 times)

Offline Toad

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2008, 01:34:57 PM »
China is drilling on a lease from Cuba 50-60 miles offshore of Florida. Thank Cod we're protecting that coast.... oh wait.....

And when they stick those straws into that big pool of oil, do you think some of it will flow over to the straw from the US side of the line?

I'm so happy we're not drilling there; it's great to be stupid and righteous.
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Offline Charon

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2008, 03:40:24 PM »
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But what do the speculators do with the oil? At the end of the day, they either have to take delivery of the oil and store it, or sell it.

Speculators could be really distorting the market if they were stockpiling oil, but they aren't. With oil selling for $120+ a barrel, consumption is roughly equal to production.

If prices were lower, consumption would be higher. Higher consumption isn't possible without higher production.

Perhaps the use of the term speculation is a bit of an issue, since much is not traditional speculation. There is a lot of institutional money moving into commodities, especially energy and oil that is banking on both short term and long term tightening of supplies. This level of investment has been unheard of in the industry. One would assume/hope they are not intentionally making risky bets (:aok).

Production is currently moving up notably (2 - 4 percent per quarter now) and demand similarly falling notably (or in some cases not increasing significantly). We currently have about doubled our daily surplus capacity to about 3 million bbl/day compared to 2006.

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If it's not related to supply and demand, where is the oil going? If consumption = production at $120 a barrel, how could consumption = production at, say, $80 a barrel, unless production increased?

Perhaps that extra $40 is due to the belief in the futures market, right or wrong, that world events or peak oil or whatever will make $120 or $150 or $200 a natural future price for those contracts. Given the lag time for elasticity we have to eat $120 bbl for now to get on with daily life as we know it. However, if that throws us into a recession watch demand plummet and watch China and Indian growth collasp along with us. More on the rate of trading relative to actual product moving in the markets:

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That brings us to speculation. Evans observes that since September 2003, the total number of open crude oil futures and options contracts rose by 364 percent. Meanwhile the global demand for petroleum rose by just 8.2 percent. "So the futures and options market has become more important than the physical supplies in driving the price," concludes Evans. "We are seeing investment flows into the oil market that don't have anything to do with the demand and supply of oil."

Investors are treating oil as a hedge against inflation and a falling dollar. Oil markets are part of a negative positive feedback loop in which higher oil prices contribute to higher inflation, which in turn lowers the value of the dollar, which boosts oil prices, and so forth. In other words, the oil market is coming to resemble the gold market (which has also been soaring). Evans notes that most gold traders don't even ask the question of how much gold was mined last year or how much spare gold mining capacity there is.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/125414.html

But, at some point they will have to: "take delivery of the oil and store it, or sell it."

Which gets to the point, are their price positions accurate?

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But will the new sources even offset the decline in existing fields, let alone lead to increased supply? The North Sea is down 2 million barrels a day from peak, and likely to decline another 10% this year. Russian oil production actually declined in the first quarter of this year, rather than increased as forecast. Mexican production is falling fast. Venezuela, which had been forecast to increase production for years to come, is experiencing major declines.

Granted politics and mismanagement plays a part in the declines in some countries, rather than a lack of reserves, but that doesn't make the declines any less real.

The world has to add a lot of production each year just to make up for the declines in existing sources. In the last couple of years the US has added new production, but that's only halted the long term decline in the US, it hasn't actually increased total production from the 2006 figure.

I'm not convinced that we are quite there yet, and by yet this decade or so. But who really knows? There is a lack of transparency as to what is natural and what is artificial among producers, their capacity and reserves. And as noted politics and inefficiency come into play in Nigeria, Venezuela, Mexico and Russia (not to mention, Iraq). Easy oil is getting harder to extract, but to what extent are drops in US or North sea production simply an economic factor based upon lower cost alternatives in the Middle East? That is one of the criticisms of ANWR drilling, is that it would simply offset more slightly expensive fields that would be shut down.

Chinese and Indian demand are still somewhat artificial, propped up by the govt. subsidies and by our trade imbalance. Much of our demand is certainly artificial given the automotive trends of the 1990s onward. How long can that be sustained?

And, OPEC has kept unusually unified lately, largely by Venezuela not cheating as much, even with so much potential profit to be made. That has in the past and can again, likely, change dramatically.

I think that if peak oil were taken fully seriously, you would see a lot of investment start rolling into tar sands or shale or coal to liquid that you simply do not see today.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 03:42:42 PM by Charon »

Offline Urchin

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2008, 08:35:52 PM »
But what do the speculators do with the oil? At the end of the day, they either have to take delivery of the oil and store it, or sell it.

Speculators could be really distorting the market if they were stockpiling oil, but they aren't. With oil selling for $120+ a barrel, consumption is roughly equal to production.

If prices were lower, consumption would be higher. Higher consumption isn't possible without higher production.

That's true, and I think oil demand will fall, and prices with it.


I disagree (granted, WTFGAS, eh?).  When housing prices doubled in 5 years, do you really think it was due to 'supply and demand'?  I guess you could say yes, depending on how you view it, but the increase in demand was an artificial increase...  it was speculation.  Someone would find a cheap house, fix it up, sell it for 25% more than he bought it for.  Pretty soon people aren't even fixing it up, they are snapping up property to sell to the next biggest fool down the line. 

There was no real increase in the demand for housing.  The number of people looking for houses didn't double in 5 years.  The funny thing is that even with the 'catastrophic meltdown' of the housing bubble, there has only been a 15% drop in home prices across the country.  That still leaves people who owned their homes before the home flipping mania up about 85%.  And prices are sticky.. they aren't going to drop down to anywhere near where they 'should' be given historical trends.  People have gotten used to the idea that the house they bought for 150,000 10 years ago is worth ~300,000 now... they might sell for 285,000, but they certainly aren't going to sell it for 200,000.  Even if they move, they'll hang on to that old house 'until the market recovers'.  I've seen houses in neighborhoods around me on the market for as long as I've lived here (so 15-16 months).

The same thing is happening with oil.  And the price of gas isn't going to go down even if the price of oil plummets.  At least not for quite a long time.

Offline BTW

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2008, 09:18:26 PM »
  And the price of gas isn't going to go down even if the price of oil plummets.  At least not for quite a long time.

According to Ben Stein you may be right. He states the price of gas is lagging behind the price of oil. How far, he doesn't say.

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Finally, the worst news: Oil has been going up a lot faster than gasoline. That means gasoline might possibly have far more upward movement in price. Be prepared.

Interesting article here :

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/25/sunday/main4125912.shtml
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 09:22:05 PM by BTW »

Offline Nashwan

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2008, 09:46:22 PM »
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I disagree (granted, WTFGAS, eh?).  When housing prices doubled in 5 years, do you really think it was due to 'supply and demand'?  I guess you could say yes, depending on how you view it, but the increase in demand was an artificial increase...  it was speculation.

The difference between houses and oil is the houses weren't being consumed.

I'm  not saying speculation can't push up the price of oil long term, I'm saying if it was doing so stockpiles would be increasing.

After all, there's no point buying oil as an investment if you then burn it.

If all the oil being produced is being consumed, then the price is not artificially high. Demand, at that price, equals supply.

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I disagree (granted, WTFGAS, eh?).  When housing prices doubled in 5 years, do you really think it was due to 'supply and demand'?  I guess you could say yes, depending on how you view it, but the increase in demand was an artificial increase...  it was speculation.

Nobody is denying there's a lot of speculation on oil, just that that speculation isn't having a major influence on price.

From the May IEA report on oil:

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With oil prices reaching $125/bbl, calls for more oil are getting louder. But do we really need more oil? To answer this, we need to look at the current balances, forecasting risks and some of the market perceptions that may have been driving the oil price. First, we need to step back from the detail and simply define that, in our opinion, this is a bull market driven primarily by demand potential outstripping slow supply growth – notably non-OPEC. With no slack in the system, prices have had to rise to choke off demand growth and bring the market into balance.

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Perhaps that extra $40 is due to the belief in the futures market, right or wrong, that world events or peak oil or whatever will make $120 or $150 or $200 a natural future price for those contracts.

But how does that affect the spot price if stocks are not increasing? If consumption = production, then the price has to be right. If the price is too high, consumption is less than production.

The IEA point out that accurate stock data for most countries is delayed, so stocks could already be building, and in that case oil could already be overpriced. But that's a short term thing, only applicable whilst stocks are increasing.

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That brings us to speculation. Evans observes that since September 2003, the total number of open crude oil futures and options contracts rose by 364 percent. Meanwhile the global demand for petroleum rose by just 8.2 percent. "So the futures and options market has become more important than the physical supplies in driving the price," concludes Evans. "We are seeing investment flows into the oil market that don't have anything to do with the demand and supply of oil."

Investors are treating oil as a hedge against inflation and a falling dollar. Oil markets are part of a negative positive feedback loop in which higher oil prices contribute to higher inflation, which in turn lowers the value of the dollar, which boosts oil prices, and so forth. In other words, the oil market is coming to resemble the gold market (which has also been soaring). Evans notes that most gold traders don't even ask the question of how much gold was mined last year or how much spare gold mining capacity there is.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/125414.html

If speculators think the price of oil will go on increasing, of course they will "invest" in it. But how does that raise the price?

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Finally, the worst news: Oil has been going up a lot faster than gasoline. That means gasoline might possibly have far more upward movement in price. Be prepared.

Refiners have been getting very little for the gasoline they have been producing this spring. I think it's been increasing for the last couple of months, though, so gasoline might not have much further to go relative to the price of oil.

Offline Urchin

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2008, 05:35:30 AM »
The same way it raised housing prices. 

This example may not make a helluva lot of sense, especially since I know oil isn't traded this way, but this is how I see it. 

Lets say Sam and Bill are investors.  Jack is a refinery.  Wahib is an oil field owner.  In the past, Jack paid Wahib directly for his oil.  A couple years ago, Sam walked up to Wahib and said, "Hey, I'll give you $5 more a barrel if you sell to me."  Well, now Wahib can sell to Jack for X, or Sam for X+5.  Since Wahib isn't an utter moron, he sells to Sam.  Well, Sam can't DO anything with the oil, but Jack (who can) has no oil to refine, so he has to get it from somewhere.  So he buys his (more expensive) oil from Sam.  At some point, Bill sees what a nice racket Sam has going on, and starts buying the oil from Sam before Jack can, and marks it up some more before selling it to Jack. 

I realize there are practically an infinite number of buyers and sellers, but thats the simplistic view that I have.  The speculators push up the price of oil by artificially increasing demand, much the same way they did in the housing market.

If we had a market that worked like the markets do in Econ 101, then your first paragraph would be true.

Offline john9001

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2008, 06:57:34 AM »

Lets say Sam and Bill are investors.  Jack is a refinery.  Wahib is an oil field owner.  In the past, Jack paid Wahib directly for his oil.  A couple years ago, Sam walked up to Wahib and said, "Hey, I'll give you $5 more a barrel if you sell to me."  Well, now Wahib can sell to Jack for X, or Sam for X+5.  Since Wahib isn't an utter moron, he sells to Sam.  Well, Sam can't DO anything with the oil, but Jack (who can) has no oil to refine, so he has to get it from somewhere.  So he buys his (more expensive) oil from Sam.  At some point, Bill sees what a nice racket Sam has going on, and starts buying the oil from Sam before Jack can, and marks it up some more before selling it to Jack. 

I realize there are practically an infinite number of buyers and sellers, but thats the simplistic view that I have.  The speculators push up the price of oil by artificially increasing demand, much the same way they did in the housing market.



thats the way the Enron scam worked.

Offline Eagler

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2008, 06:59:24 AM »
China is drilling on a lease from Cuba 50-60 miles offshore of Florida. Thank Cod we're protecting that coast.... oh wait.....

And when they stick those straws into that big pool of oil, do you think some of it will flow over to the straw from the US side of the line?

I'm so happy we're not drilling there; it's great to be stupid and righteous.

yep saw our great gov on the tele whining about the cost of gas and in the next breath state he was against drilling off our coast .. can't have it both ways Chris...
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Offline Nashwan

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2008, 07:35:32 AM »
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Lets say Sam and Bill are investors.  Jack is a refinery.  Wahib is an oil field owner.  In the past, Jack paid Wahib directly for his oil.  A couple years ago, Sam walked up to Wahib and said, "Hey, I'll give you $5 more a barrel if you sell to me."  Well, now Wahib can sell to Jack for X, or Sam for X+5.  Since Wahib isn't an utter moron, he sells to Sam.  Well, Sam can't DO anything with the oil, but Jack (who can) has no oil to refine, so he has to get it from somewhere.  So he buys his (more expensive) oil from Sam.

Right. But Jack is paying more for oil, which means he is selling his gasoline and diesel for more. That means he is selling less. That means he is buying less oil, and Sam has some left over.

Sam is stockpiling oil.

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t some point, Bill sees what a nice racket Sam has going on, and starts buying the oil from Sam before Jack can, and marks it up some more before selling it to Jack.

I realize there are practically an infinite number of buyers and sellers, but thats the simplistic view that I have.

So Bill and Sam are competing for the oil, and then selling it on. The price to Jack, the refiner, goes up all the time. That means he sells less all the time, and buys less oil. Bill and Sam are either stockpiling oil, or selling it for less to get rid of it. If they're selling it for less, they aren't driving the price up. And we know that they haven't been stockpiling, because stocks have been flat, or even reducing.

Speculators can certainly drive the price up, but the evidence they are doing so would be increased stockpiles. Stockpiles haven't increased. (again with the note that stock data lags, so it may have been going up for a month or two, but no more than that)

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The speculators push up the price of oil by artificially increasing demand, much the same way they did in the housing market.

Again the difference with the housing market is you can invest in a house and live in it. You cannot invest in oil and burn it. If you burn the oil, it's gone, it's not worth anything.

Offline lasersailor184

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2008, 07:40:55 AM »
You're making the giant assumption that gas consumption is perfectly flexible to Supply and Demand.  For a place like America, it really isn't.  The demand is going to be relatively constant, despite the price.
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Offline Urchin

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2008, 08:50:00 AM »
But the way oil is traded now is in futures... not in the actual oil. 

So I can 'buy' all of Octobers oil and not have to stockpile it, the earth is doing it for me. 

And as lasersailor said, gasoline is an inelastic good, especially in America.  There aren't any alternatives for the majority of Americans.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2008, 09:48:09 AM »
But the way oil is traded now is in futures... not in the actual oil. 

So I can 'buy' all of Octobers oil and not have to stockpile it, the earth is doing it for me. 



EXACTLY
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Offline Charon

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2008, 10:00:05 AM »
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But the way oil is traded now is in futures... not in the actual oil.

So I can 'buy' all of Octobers oil and not have to stockpile it, the earth is doing it for me.

And as lasersailor said, gasoline is an inelastic good, especially in America.  There aren't any alternatives for the majority of Americans

As Urchin states, it's Futures that are central to this and FOR NOW we have an inelastic demand -- oil at virtually whatever price until our habits catch up with the pain.

Charon

Offline Shamus

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2008, 10:18:56 AM »
And as margin rules require about 5% of the value of the contract, that is all that is at risk however up side can be limitless.

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Offline Nashwan

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Re: Obama suggests windfall tax in response to gas prices
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2008, 10:19:17 AM »
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You're making the giant assumption that gas consumption is perfectly flexible to Supply and Demand.  For a place like America, it really isn't.  The demand is going to be relatively constant, despite the price.

Oil demand has fallen across the developed world. OECD oil demand peaked in 2005, fell in 2006, fell again in 2007, and has fallen even further so far in 2008. And the falls in 2006 came despite the economy growing well, and at an oil price of around $60 a barrel.

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But the way oil is traded now is in futures... not in the actual oil.

So I can 'buy' all of Octobers oil and not have to stockpile it, the earth is doing it for me. 

And in October you find you have got a lot of oil. What are you going to do with it? Sell it. If you price it too high, you won't sell it all, and you will have some left over. In other words, stockpiles will grow.