P-61 BLACK WIDOW

[Ack-Ack]

Ack-Ack,

You're throwing out more performance figures while completely missing the point. I said effectiveness, not performance. A F1 car performs a hell of a lot better than a school bus, but I wouldn't haul kids in it. Night fighters fly long missions in an unforgiving environment. Radar range and crew effectiveness are essential. The P-61 is superior on both counts.
As far as the Mossie goes, you're correct, but we were talking about the P-38M. The Brits did prefer the Mossie to the Widow. Does that surprise anyone? Keep in mind also that those Mossie Mk XVII's, XVIII's, and XIX's, as well as later models all had the SCR-720 radar from the P-61.

Night fighters aren't simply fighters that happen to fly at night. Their design requirements are completely different. Long endurance, a powerful radar to find enemy bombers, coupled with devastating firepower to take them out quickly when visibility is very poor or non-existent, are the key requirements. The Widow fills all these requirements far better than the P-38M.
 

You're missing the point...the Blackwidow you want in the game never saw any action.  Yes, the P-61C was an excellent night fighter/attack platform but it never saw any action as it entered service too late in the war when it was pretty much over.  However, the P-61A and B models were different and didn't perform or were more effective than the P-38M, F6F5-N, Mosquito, etc., and those would be the versions of the Blackwidow we'd get if they were ever added to the game, not the C version.

So yes, the P-61A and B models weren't any more effective than the Night Lightning, F6F5-N or the night fighter versions of the Mosquito. 


P-61A


P-61C



ack-ack

[Krusty]

Range and duration weren't always necessary. The night fighters flew set paths on defensive patterns, around the intended targets. British night fighters didn't need to fly all the way to Germany, they flew over London and shot the bombers down locally.

109s, 190s, hurricanes, spitfires, all of these relatively-short-range fighters were pressed into night fighter duties.

Range and duration weren't ever really the most important part of night fighting. Finding and killing the target were first and formost

[Jester]

OH HELL.....if everyone else is going to be begging for NIGHT FIGHTERS in a game with NO DARKNESS i might as well get in on it also......

I WANT THE P-38M NIGHT FIGHTER!

It could also carry Bombs and Rockets.   



 

[Cthulhu]

You're missing the point...the Blackwidow you want in the game never saw any action.  Yes, the P-61C was an excellent night fighter/attack platform but it never saw any action as it entered service too late in the war when it was pretty much over.  However, the P-61A and B models were different and didn't perform or were more effective than the P-38M, F6F5-N, Mosquito, etc., and those would be the versions of the Blackwidow we'd get if they were ever added to the game, not the C version.

So yes, the P-61A and B models weren't any more effective than the Night Lightning, F6F5-N or the night fighter versions of the Mosquito. 


P-61A

ack-ack

Granted, this is purely academic, since NF's have no place in AH, but

Show me where I referred to the P-61C specifically? I've never made any distinction between the A, B, and C models in regard to the most important requirement, which was being able to find the enemy and apply heavy firepower. All models of the Black Widow carry the SCR-720, a unit with far more power (75 kw) and range than the AN/APS-6 (35 kw). It allows the crew to detect targets at much greater distances, with less support from ground-based radars.  The much smaller units on the P-38M and F-6F5-N don't provide nearly the range of the SCR-720, argueably the best AI set of the war.

To quote Krusty:

Finding and killing the target were first and formost

Which the SCR-720 did better than any other unit. And only larger birds like the P-61, P-70, and the Mossie NF's had it. Not the P-38M, not the F-6F5-N.
 

[Krusty]

It's not as if the onboard dar was the only thing. Ground radar vectored them in until they were within a couple of miles of the target, then they started scanning with their own unit.

FYI: The Mossie is a very compact plane. The cockpit area is quite cramped with 2 folks in it (one pilot one radar operator).

The Beaufighter, also rather compact, also had a somewhat cramped cockpit.

Doesn't take a giant airframe to mount a powerful radar unit. Also, doesn't take a giant radar setup to get the job done. Even the smaller ones found the enemy.

Keep in mind the actual attack was done visually.

[Squire]

That was true for defending night fighters, but offensive NFs (over Germany, and Japan) rarely had GCI to help them. Also, even defensive NFs often prosecuted contacts they made on thier own.

As for the various models, you have to remember that each had a role. You can't give the USN a P-61 (or a Mosquito) in 1945, its not CV capable, so the F6Fs and F4Us had their part to play (they fit on the deck), which was defending the Fleet at night, as well as doing offensive ops over enemy territory.

Nothing wrong with the P-38M, it had the advantage of being faster and better performing than the P-61, so it could close a contact quicker, so its not like it had no advantages. The P-61, P-70, and Mossie, and Beaufighter (whos radar operator was behind the pilot), had larger, more ergonomical crew quarters, dedicated radar operators, and larger radars, so that was their advantage.

...they all had strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes different roles.

[Jester]

Information on the two main types of AI Radar's used on US Nightfighters during WW2: 

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-8.htm  (it's slow, give it time to load)

The "AIA" type was used on the F4U(N), F6F(N), P-38M & TBM(N) in a pod mounting. It was also known as the AN/APS-6.
SUMMARY:The AN/APS-6 radar was to scan a 120 deg cone-shaped area ahead of the aircraft flight path in selected ranges of five, 25 and 65 miles for radar search, with the maximum range extended to 100 miles for radar beacon. When within one-half mile of a selected target, the set could be switched to the gun aim mode for accurate aiming and firing of the aircraft guns.

[lyric1]

In this book I have It says a number of P61 squadrons had nothing to shoot at in it's night time roll as there were very few enemy night fighters left in operation. So most were used in the day in an attack roll on ground targets with bombs & rockets. So in my opinion the entire radar issue for AH11 is Moot.

[MiloMorai]

I think you mis-read what was said. P-61s were were used for night interdiction/intruder with bombs.

[Hazzer]

P61 would add nothing to the Game,it was a dedicated Night fighter and the perfect example of a plane designed by committee,P38m was a better night fighter and aircraft,we don't need that either.

[lyric1]

I think you mis-read what was said. P-61s were were used for night interdiction/intruder with bombs.

If this reply was meant for me? No I didn't misread the prior posts I understood what was written. My book shows pictures with P61's loaded with bombs & rockets for day time missions & makes mention that this was the role that a lot of p61's were used for. Some squadrons never got to use the p61 in a night fighter role. Per the book.

[Ack-Ack]

If this reply was meant for me? No I didn't misread the prior posts I understood what was written. My book shows pictures with P61's loaded with bombs & rockets for day time missions & makes mention that this was the role that a lot of p61's were used for. Some squadrons never got to use the p61 in a night fighter role. Per the book.

Yes, P-61 units did do daytime missions but the majority of their missions were in night time, usually in night interdiction (attack) missions.  They flew far more attack missions at night than they did in the daytime.


ack-ack

[MiloMorai]

lyric, I suggest you read the Osprey book on the P-61. Especially the caption for the photo on pg 28.

Anyways, there was the much more capable A-26 for daylight missions.

[lyric1]

lyric, I suggest you read the Osprey book on the P-61. Especially the caption for the photo on pg 28.

Anyways, there was the much more capable A-26 for daylight missions.

Thank you for the book reference. Also agreed on the A-26 in fact here In Urbana Ohio the local WW11 aircraft restorer has purchased an A-26 & will arrive soon I am told. Quite a nice collection he is getting together two b-25J's one b-17g a c47 & now the A-26.

[leitwolf]

Ok, can we get the plane now? please?