Some ideas for the Buffs

[Spivey]

Not so Tac. They wore Flak Jackets, and many gunners could still fight while wounded. There is a story of one B17 that made it back which looked like swiss cheese. Everyone survived... except one guy who wasn't wearing his flak jacket. All were wounded, but all lived.


 

Originally posted by Tac:
Also, make the crew of the gunners be killable. The BS of filling the fuselage of a bomber with a stream of hits in high speed side pass and having all guns still fire you is ridiculous. in RL all the waist gunners and the top turret gunner would have been turned into confetti.

From a buff's 6 (when you sneak on them and they dont notice you) you can spray 4 .50's + 1 20mm cannons into the tail itself for a good 2 seconds and then have the tail gun open fire on you. Last time I checked the tail turret had no space-age armored glass capable of stopping 20mm cannon shells.

If I can get a pilot kill in a fighter, I would like to be able to kill the gunners.

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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers

[Spivey]

I have consistently downed B17's in one pass using an off angle approach from underneath at about 10 or 2ok. Typically I don't even get pinged.

The trick to killing buffs is to be there when they arrive. The trick to surviving in a buff is to get altitude. KB and I downed 10 B17's coming in lo at one base. I think we both died once.



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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers

[Spivey]

Yes, I read a book about the 303rd, and they talk often about how the gunners would yell to the pilot to "kick it over" meaning hard rudder when a 190 or 109 was about to pork them.

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
..and crash into mountain while trying to keep your foe busy  
I've found control ability good sometimes, just to avoid hitting mountain side or to get some bullets below the bomber.  
I don't think that B-26 pilot would fly straight line knowing that theres fighter coming from below to toast you up if you dont turn. (I don't either believe that gunners would just wait plane to quit turning before firing)

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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers

[Spivey]

TAC, my son, my son! Learn how to better kill bombers! I had it out with wolf37, he in Spit and I in B17. No one else around. In the end he got my fuel, and he ran lo on fuel and we parted ways, neither dying. Why? Because he did a VERY VERY GOOD JOB at attacking me at the prime angles and not hanging out in range for very long. IT CAN BE DONE!

 

Originally posted by Tac:
80 rnds of 20mm with the 4 .50's that came with it (about 120 rnds? 200? I only count my cannon rounds) on the tail turret and the tail still fires at me. Oh yeah, thats gotta be one damn superhuman gunner firing the .50's with his teeth while his head hangs from an inch from his ass. Not to mention the sweet way the ball turret and top turret fire at me through the tail of the plane.

One thing ive found out is that there is NO way you can defeat a buff if the gunner is watching you. All the so called "buff attack" tactics are completely dependent on making the gunner switch guns while you hit the buff. Guess what, thats the lamest GAME THE GAME crap ive seen. Give the buffs an otto that has the same aim/fire logic as the field acks, let them keep their range boost, remove the BS superconvergencefromhell (as each gun would have its own firing AI) and let the human gunner fire only ONE gun, not have the AI fire at the exact same spot as he is (hell, you need a modern computer to do that, im sure ww2 gunners wouldve LOVED to have that!). Buffs would then be well protected (AI gunners having unlimited ammo, human gunner would spend ammo when he fires a gun), fighters would not be swatted out of the sky by turbolaser crapolia and best of all, it simulates a buff MUCH better than the crap we have now.

That or make the buffs be FULLY manned by human gunners.

Until then, buffs can as well fly all over, I aint engaging someone who has a very unfair advantage over me.

/rant off

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Spivey, buffmeister of the Flying Tigers

[ET]

Just looked at the kill stats
B-17 1992 Kills 2136 Killed
B-26 1531 Kills 2010 Killed
Lanc  958 Kills 1673 Killed
     4482       5809
 I guess if these odds aren't good enough for you,then they could have 20% of buff missions sit on the runway or not gain more altitude than 5k or disable the tail gun.There are guys here that kill me every time and I can tell by their approaches just how tough a fight I will be in.Others come in and I know they will not be in the air long.If you are not killing buffs,the problem is yours and not the game design.
There are not enough people flying buffs or want to and its tough to get a group together,so a lot of buffs fly alone.Changing any thing to make buffs weaker will only lead to less people flying buffs.
     

[Vermillion]

Ummm.... a flakjacket is just that. A jacket meant to stop shell fragments.

There is not a flakjacket/bulletproof vest on earth that would stop a single round from ANY of the aircraft mounted weapons in Aces High.

And please. There is comparitively  very , very little, armor to total space on any plane.  Let alone a bomber. And even then, most of this "armor" will not stop anything from .50 cal (or 12.7mm & 13mm) on up.

The reason that bombers are so deadly to fighters, is the way that the hit detection is accomplished.  Corner Hitech or Pyro sometime and talk to them about it. Its an interesting discussion.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[gatt]

The pic of the ball gunner firing through the fuselage is really interesting. God only knows what else is hidden in convergence/lethality settings  

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GAT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run." (G.Beurling)

[Cobra]

 

Originally posted by ET:
Just looked at the kill stats
B-17 1992 Kills 2136 Killed
B-26 1531 Kills 2010 Killed
Lanc  958 Kills 1673 Killed
     4482       5809
 I guess if these odds aren't good enough for you,then they could have 20% of buff missions sit on the runway or not gain more altitude than 5k or disable the tail gun.There are guys here that kill me every time and I can tell by their approaches just how tough a fight I will be in.Others come in and I know they will not be in the air long.If you are not killing buffs,the problem is yours and not the game design.
There are not enough people flying buffs or want to and its tough to get a group together,so a lot of buffs fly alone.Changing any thing to make buffs weaker will only lead to less people flying buffs.
     

ET Nailed IT!!!

Look at the Stats before you complain, sheesh.

And Tac....not everyone has a problem killing buffs as the stats above proove.  YOU might have a problem with them, but EVERYONE does NOT.

Cobra

[Tac]

I am not saying to make buffs weaker. Im saying make its gunnery be at least a bit realistic. Right now, having a buff point all possible guns at you and hit you in the exact same spot is ridiculous and very unfair.

Stats can say anything you want to say. Try a better argument.

When I fly buff, most of the times I get shot down are when 2 or 3 fighters are on me, if im watching a con coming at me, he is DEAD. At d1.3 start firing those guns (with no tracers), at d1.0 or d900 I usually get one burst on them and BEWM they go.Those 8 50cals hitting on the exact same spot turn the b17 into a P-47 that can face you in any direction and hit you with perfect convergence at any range. If a lone fighter gets me, its very usually a CHOG or N1k spraying at long range (sweet that the fighter's gun shake reduces acurracy for those beasts!).

"Changing any thing to make buffs weaker will only lead to less people flying buffs."

Oh really? You as a buff driver, what would you prefer to have? each turret able to track and fire at an approaching con or keeping your "point all guns at this spot" guns which you have to man?. Let me guess... with one you would have better overall protection, but with the other you can kill fighters real quick. I wonder which gamethegame option you will choose.  

"Not so Tac. They wore Flak Jackets, and many gunners could still fight while wounded. There is a story of one B17 that made it back which looked like swiss cheese. Everyone survived... except one guy who wasn't wearing his flak jacket. All were wounded, but all lived"

No modern body armor can stop a 20mm cannon shell or 50 cal round hitting it from 600 yds. Flak jackets are like the infantry helmets, they are made to stop shrapnel, not bullets.

[loser]

I agree.. lets make buffs and their guns more realistic and historically correct.  lets go with tac's idea to have guns on buffs like field ack (which all fires at...that's right...one target in convergence.) but to keep with the whole realism theme, lets also throw up another 50 or so "otto" bombers all working on the same "field ack system" flying in a nice formation.  Bah and you thought flying through cv ack was bad.


/tard mode off

[Cobra]

 

Originally posted by Tac:

Stats can say anything you want to say. Try a better argument.

Like anecdotes???

Cobra

[ET]

The stats are the only argument I have.I didn't fudge them,I simply copied them from the scoreboard.What don't you believe about them ? I used the stats to say that if you make things harder for buff drivers,that fewer people will fly them.In the real war in Europe,over half the pilots were buff drivers,in AH maybe 10%,so buffs run into more fighters here.As a buff driver my preference is to leave everything the way it is now.Also,when I have 2-3 cons chasing me as you said you did I know I'm going down.Maybe if I'm really lucky I'll take 1-2 with me.As far as strength of guns,it amazes me when 1 fighter on 1 pass can take out my tail gun,top turret,nose gun and have my pilot blacking out on 1 pass.But I can accept that as part of how the game is set up.The real issue is that there are fighter pilots in here that are really good and have no problems with buffs as they are set up now and other fighter pilots who have a problem and should communicate with the good one to learn how they do it.