Nice product, but no thanks......

[Westy]

"The key is: If you can follow an object with  your head, and you want to, then why to use keys?"

 Because padlock has the computer track FOR you. It's as simple as that.
 When you look at an object in real life you make a conscience effort to do so. Not via robotic automatic tracking like padlock. In real life you do not use keys either. But you DO make a conscience in that your brain says look here and yout then move your head on your neck for that view. Not an automatic reflex.
 It's a moot point anyhow. It won't be added.
 I for one could care less. Guppies who use padlock are the easiest pickings there are.
 Unless it's one-on-one and they have no wingmen or country folks flying near by. But I just have to add my .02 when you base your arugment on such faulty logic.
 There is nothing natural about padlock nor does padlock  replicate anything natural with it's use.
 I firmly believe padlock to be a "situational awareness" crutch for folks too lasy to try and pick up the skills to track a bogy conscientiously, themselves. These folks have the COMPUTER do the tracking and thinking for them. Lame.
 Barring having multiple computer screen showing all the caridnal points around you so that you could actually LOOK yourself the next best thing is to replicate conscientiuosly looking by hot switches on joysticks.

 -Westy

[JimBear]

MANDOBLE, this Sim will never have a padlock implemented. I flew online in a game that had pad, used it well and thought it was the only way to go. Since being exposed to Aces High I have come to grips with using snap views and becomeing more "dextrous"  
The view system works here, and after practice i find i can fly and fight (in my own muddled fashion) as well as I did with padlock. Work with it and I am sure you will find the same for your self and will be happy for the effort. This Sim is worth it!  
As for all the people that tell you that pad is a crutch, well Ballocks. I have the utmost respect for the time and effort that people from AW and WBs put in to master their viewing systems, but to denigrate an alternative that was not available to those venerable games at their outset is just plain snobbery.  It assumes that if you didnt do it like US your a nekulturny dweeb, with no SA skills. Sometime, somewhere I hope that a pad system is worked out that will satisfy both camps. Until then I will just save up for my multimonitor life size cockpit  


JimBear

[dolomite]

Don't forget VR headsets!  

[popeye]

Yes, please give us padlock view.  I want a sky full of targets locked on to each other.  

popeye

[MANDOBLE]

>> When you look at an object in real life you make a conscience effort to do so.
Well, when I activate padlock, I do a conscience effort   I suppose that you have no problem to track visually a moving object until it is obscured by an obstacle, right? There is no conscience effort to do so. Or do you need a great conscience effort to track an airliner flying around an airport?  
If you fly RC models, you should know that visually tracking them is very easy, you dont need to be a genius.

>> Guppies who use padlock are the easiest pickings there are.

True. BTW padlock does not eliminate the classic view system, when you need to concentrate in a particular target, realistic padlocking is the right way. While you are with padlock activated the classic view keys are also available, so, if you press KP4, you look to the left, when you release KP4, if still visible, padlock re-track your target. This way your SA is safe.

>> There is nothing natural about padlock nor does padlock  replicate anything natural with it's use.

There is nothing natural about 26 key combinations nor does it replicates anything natural with it's use. I do not use fingers nor several hats to track anything in real life.

>> I firmly believe padlock to be a "situational awareness" crutch for folks too lasy to try and pick up the skills to track a bogy conscientiously, themselves.

True again, but only when you use ONLY padlock. It is up to the player to use it all the time or to mix it with proper classic
views to keep aware of its real situation.

In fact, I've been playing WarBirds for several years, from its begginings. And MY conclusion is that classic views plus padlocking is the better way to have a realistic air combat experience. When you are tracking an enemy, probably you will have to manage your flaps, trim your elevator, rudder and ailerons, control your engine RPM, your WEP, zoom in to shoot, shoot with primary or secondary, drop your fuel tank, etc. Too many tasks to sacrifice a hand just to press view keys. Let me know if with your actual joy settings you are able to trim elev/rudder/aileron all at the same time while you keep pressing keys or hats to visualy track an enemy...  ...if you are not able, then you are not experiencing the real thing.

And for the defenders, like you, of the actual view sytem, this is anything but reallistic. You can look forward, press KP2 and look backwards without traveling by the sides. So, you invert (not turn) your head in one nanosecond. The best way to solve this "bug?" is to generate propertly the rotation of the head slaving the view to the mouse or cursor movement.

[funked]

I don't think a padlock is a cheat.  In fact I think it's a disadvantage!

However, someone pointed out a few months ago that it would be a great help for disabled pilots, i.e. somebody who can move the stick and throttle but has a hard time with lots of buttons.

For that reason alone I'd like to see it implemented.

[Westy]

"So, you invert (not turn) your head in one nanosecond. "    I use the pan mode. Not the snap mode.

 Good counter-post btw and all your points were worthy and noted. I've got to stop being  too confrontational in my posts. Re: "guppy"
 As for "Too many tasks to sacrifice a hand just to press view keys." I am fortunate to own CH equipment; Pro throttle, Pro pedals and F16 Fighterstick. On my CH stick are all my views so I can track and shoot the target with just one hand while using the Throttle to do trim, throttle movements and flaps with the other. Without this setup you are quite right in that adjusting trim/elev/rudder/aileron all at the same time while pressing keys or hats to visually track an enemy would be impossible and very unnatural.
 
 -Westy

[MANDOBLE]

It seems you are very lucky with your stick. I have a TM FLCS + TQS and the problem is as follows. Due the human hand desing, at least my hand desing and size, I have, at best, three operational fingers for TQS in the left (I dont have multithread fingers), and other three operational fingers in the right: one on the trigger, other (the BIG one) dancing through four hats (two of them for views) and a third one for multiple purposes (button clicks, no hats). The rest of my fingers, four, are just useless. So, I can handle, with a lot of skill, 6 more buttons or hats at the same time. The main problem is that my skillest finger is just the one that is controlling the views, so, the crude reality is that when I'm tracking a plane, I cant manually trim propertly the plane, neither control the flaps. At best, I can control the WEP, some autotrim, engine start/stop, zoom  and secondary weapons. I cant imagine anyone controlling zoom, flaps, rudder, elevator and aileron trim while using the BING finger to track the enemy.

The conclusion: If you give me two more BIG fingers, I can give up about padlocking  

Anyway, I suppose that most of the players dont have a TM or CH full equipment... ...so, I suppose that most of the players need the padlock more than me...

[Pongo]

I rarely find the need to stop the engine drop the flaps trim in 3 axis and zoom and fire and cut throttle and look at the map at the same time.
Usually view, fire, rudder, stick, and throttle are enough.. and i have enough fingers for that on my logitech interceptor + rudder pedals


------------------
Pongo

[popeye]

"I cant imagine anyone controlling zoom, flaps, rudder, elevator and aileron trim while using the BING finger to track the enemy."

Using a CH programmable throttle with some buttons and hats, and a CH Combatstick with some more buttons and hats, I can use flaps, WEP, aileron trim, elevator trim, 3 radios, 4 radio message macros, radio buffer control, map view and zoom, weapon select, and angle autotrim -- while tracking the enemy with 8 views.  (Oh, and shoot.)  

The key thing here is that you don't need to see the enemy all the time to track him.  With experience, you will know where he is going to be in the next couple of seconds, so you can use that time to select some control, or to check six, or find your beer.  This is part of SA.

I have never really used padlock view, but I imagine it would actually interfere with the ability to predict the enemy's position, since you wouldn't need to learn to predict if the computer is doing it for you.  I could be wrong.

popeye


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 01-28-2000).]

[K-KEN]

COD, where was I?  
Don't judge a book by it's cover.  But your opinion is welcome.  This is just a test, until this last update.  Follow through, and then make a decision.  
KKEN

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
I have never really used padlock view, but I imagine it would actually interfere with the ability to predict the enemy's position, since you wouldn't need to learn to predict if the computer is doing it for you.  I could be wrong.
]

1 - Padlocking is not predicting anything, it is just visually tracking. When you track a moving vehicle you don't need to predict anything, you are seeing the car and you are following its movements. Of course, you need to predict when you loose the track, but if you loose the track you loose the padlock.

2 - With my actual TM set I have much more functions than those you describe. In fact, I think you have much more also with your CH set, but the key is to be able to use all critical controls while tracking the enemy. If you need to loose the track to activate WEP and then trying to predict where the enemy is, then you have the same problems like me, you need the padlock. In real life your head keeps the enemy insight while your finger switch on WEP, there are no prediction at all while you can see the enemy.

[Hollywood]

Idiamn, this is what I do.  I have a not too complex three axis joystick with hat (Sidewinder 3d pro).  I always fly with one hand on the number pad for views.  I use the hat switch for view backup when I have to move my left hand to hit a key on the keyboard.  Note that there is actually a forward view key on the keypad that does nothing by itself normally (the 8 or up arrow key).  You can set the head position for this key so that it is forward or back from your normal head position.  This can give you a look at your instruments from the position your left hand is normally for as long as you hold it down and not in a click on click off style like the z key.  Alternatively you can have the normal view show the instruments and the alternate view be closer in.

For the view system I would suggest that you view some films of your flights while practicing the view system only with your left hand.  It really doesn't take long to get used to it and I think it is much better than a padlock system, although padlock with view key override could work okay too for those that wanted to use it and wouldn't give an unfair advantage as long as it didn't track when the target was obscured by the cockpit.

Mandoble, lol, you obviously have too many dollars to spend on equipment  .  With my much simpler I never run out of fingers, although I do admit I don't have instant control of everything and could use a throttle or peddals.  Taking half a second to look at the keyboard to find the k key or whatever doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Also I don't recommend using the head moving system when in flight.  That can really mess you up.  I always hit f9 to disable it.  Just set your views where you want them and leave them there so that you can jump to the view you want instantly with your number pad or with your hat switch(s).

------------------
It's a good day for flying!

    General Chuck Yeager

[funked]

Hollywood - the free head movement will really come into play once we get into reduced icon situations in scenarios, etc.  This will be very good for situations where you are flying a steady course and need to scan for bandits.

[RAM]

my 2 cents here...or my 2 pesetas    .
Not only for disabled people, the padlock is Neccesary also for people like me who only has a 2-button yoke with a little throttle stick, and my trusted keyboard. No rudders. No HOTAS. So, in any fight I am:

A) controlling the plane (**OUFFF**)

B) traking target with keys (**SIGH**)

C) Taking care of rudders also with keys (**SNIFF**)

D) trying to trim the plane with 6 more keys (**AUUUUUUURGH**)

E) engaging/ disengaging WEP, also, how not...with keys! (**AAARRRRGHHH**)

F) giving six calls...yeah, you guessed...with keys!!! (**EEEEEKS**)

G) yelling HELP HELP, or my abreviate version..HLP HLP!...and of course...my little keys helping me (**OUCH!!!!)

H) Saluting the enemy plane that just shoot me down,and,of course, with the keyboard now smoking...(**SNIFFF again**)


Now let's be serious. I cant afford HOTAS...barely I can afford to buy rudder pedals, but I'm searching. I know there are more people in the same situation as mine, and if Padlock can help me please bring it in. MANDOBLE's ideas are good in realism, also. I wont mind it if I had a joystick with hat...but damn I barely have a joystick!!!!    

I fly Falcon 4.0 a lot and I find its padlocking plenty of realism. Please introduce it, it'd be helpful. thks in advance.

------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

   



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-23-2000).]