How to beat the f4u ?

[Saxman]

So throwing a spiral in wont help ? I understand the size difference like a 5.56 round versus a 7.62 round ,heavier will carry farther . however doesn't a dart fly better than a brick ? doesnt that radial create huge drag especially when turning . Isnt that why the germans tried a cowl on the 190 ?

The Corsair overcomes the drag of the radial engine by sheer muscle. The F4U-1(x) has 2000hp at combat power, 2250hp under WEP. The F4U-4's engine is even MORE powerful, (2500hp under WEP) plus has a four-bladed paddle prop which greatly contributes to the massive improvements in climb, acceleration and top speed. There's no prop fighter in the game other than the F6F and P-47 that can match the F4U in raw engine power (both of which also mounted variants of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800). By contrast, the 190s average about 1600-1700hp at combat power, maxing out at 1900hp with Boost, and I think they all used a three-bladed prop (not sure if they had a paddle blade or not). The F4U also has other drag-saving features (the inverted gull configuration of the wing proved highly effective at drag reduction) that can help compensate for the drag of the engine. It's also not so much the drag of the frontal area that reduces the Corsair's level acceleration, but parasitic drag from weight. The F4U weighs in at 12,000lbs under average combat loads, which is a LOT of airplane.

In vertical maneuvering drag is not so much the issue, but mass and engine power. A climbing spiral is not so much a matter of sustained climbing ability, but of energy retention. It's going to bleed you of energy VERY quickly. In many ways a climbing spiral actually works to the F4U's advantage for precisely those two reasons: The Corsair has a LOT of engine power and because of her greater mass she'll cling tenaciously to what energy she has, while a lighter-weight bird like the Spit will be rapidly bled of E. I frequently use the spiral climb to great effect, especially against excellent climbers like the P-38 and Ki-84 both of which will generally leave the F4U behind in a sustained climb (and in the case of the P-38, challenge her in the zoom).

Another thing to remember: sustained climb rate is more valuable for getting TO the fight and setting the initial position of advantage than it is once the fight begins. Actual combat is decided more by the zoom. In any sort of vertical fight against the F4U you're going to either want to have her completely bled of E, (and at low altitude where the Hog can't just roll over and dive out) or have enough of an initial E state advantage that the F4U can't overcome it with her ability to retain what E she has.

[Caecina]

Hi Hlbly,

What Saxman and others point out are all true, but another thing worth remembering is that a Corsair, 190, Jug, Mustang, [insert other plane that *can't do that*] can all put up one heck of a knife fight (and I mean KNIFE fight) with a Spitfire IF (and this is key), there is some altitude below both parties to work with.  This allows for nose-low manuevering to maintain speed, the use of all flight manuevers, and such.  It's pretty common to mistakenly think of "vertical" as simply "UP."  It's also "down."

Really, the closer you get to the deck in a Spitfire vs. Corsair knife fight, the better the Spitfire's chances get, for the basic reason that the number of options each party has begin to equalize.  At 10k, or even 3k, the Corsair has many more options than at < 1k.

It is also worth noting that, should you run into a Corsair pilot that knows their bird, you're almost *never* going to start a fight on equal E terms.  There are simply too many tricks for a good Corsair pilot to allow this to happen.  He's either going to have much more E (hopefully, from his perspective, hidden), or commit at once to beating you with less. There are many variables, but two of the most common situations  you'll find are as follows:

1. Corsair pilot performs power dive before icon range, you don't notice, he's below you, "easy kill," you think, and all of a sudden you're roped; or

2.  Corsair pilot merges extremely hard and is all of a sudden shooting you.  You are left wondering, "how did he do that?" he is left smiling at gear, loving his flaps, and ingratiated to all the runners in the MA who made it possible for you to think he'd just ho and run away on the merge

That last little point (jab, depending on perspective) is key.  There are an awful lot of people who will eat me alive in a fair Spitfire vs. Corsair duel, that I can suprise just enough to beat in a MA "fog of war" knife fight.

But, the bottom line is, if you really want to learn how to do it, you have to go out there and try it.  I know that we've run into each other in the DA furball area.  I'm not sure if I picked you, you picked me, or we had a good clean one or not (little hectic in there), but I do know that I'm more than willing to up any Corsair you want over and over against any Spit you want for some 1v1's in there to try and help ya out.  If you're doing something blatantly wrong I should be able to recognize it and help you out.

If (when) you see me in there, just give me a holler.

 

[Saxman]

I disagree entirely with the use of the Corsair's landing gear in air-to-air combat. IMO they have two uses: Landing and dive-bombing. If you're closing too hot on a guy's six, pull up and use the vertical to extend on the overshoot to deny him the firing opportunity as you zip past. If you've got too much E to turn with him, pop up into a High-Yo and roll over the top of him to drop back down into a firing position.

[Caecina]

I disagree entirely with the use of the Corsair's landing gear in air-to-air combat. IMO they have two uses: Landing and dive-bombing.

Disagree as much as you like, but in a game where I'm sure to be gangbanged, picked, HO'd, ran from, or anything else on the regular, I'm going to use every trick I can to end the fight quickly, and the gear is certainly one of them.

[Saxman]

Gang-banging is precisely why it's better to keep your gear tucked in air-to-air combat. Bleeds too much E. Better to pull off if you're overshooting, or use lag rolls to lengthen your pursuit. Alternately, use rudder and skids to manage your closure rate.

ANYWAY, this is a thread on how to fight AGAINST the F4U.

Most important thing to identify first is his E state. Generally, it's a good idea to always assume the Corsair may have an energy advantage. If he's above you it's a given, especially if it's an experienced Hog stick who knows how to work the vertical and his energy. Be careful of F4Us that are making their initial approach low, too. As Caecina mentioned before, it's possible he may have entered con range after completing a dive for speed, so may have a ton of extra energy. The F4U hides its E state and airspeed VERY well, maybe better than any other opponent. A Corsair 5000yds below you that at first glance doesn't seem to be moving very fast may suddenly be 200 out and filling you with lead before you can blink.

Now, a Corsair that's already been engaged with another opponent is a little different. If he's below you it's generally safer to assume you have energy on him (though he may always have used the same "helpless low con" ploy on his last opponent).

[Vantec]

So what exactly is the best way to merge with a F4U? for instance 1v1 I'm in a spit 16 hes in any F4U were both at 8-10kish heading right at each other. From what Ive read from most of these posts somehow I have to bleed the F4U's energy, so i know hes going to start to dive way before me, so what really are my options here? I cant really dive with him as a head on, nose to nose fight is not a good idea  so would I try to trick him into a dive then pull up and break left/right so he has to use that E to climb back up to meet me? but in the process wilddle down the alt from 10kish down to 2-3k  (somehow) where he cant dive to get any E? I guess the merger is always the decider when somebody is in a F4U for me, (and most of the time I loose), but on the other hand most of the time anybody in a F4U I can assume they can be a very experienced pilot and know very well the mechanics of their plane. Since the F4U is very good at holding E one can assume they will always come in high and do what I like to call "the dive of death" and get on my 6 so for me my options seem limited when they have tons of E on me I really cant out turn them, I cant dive so running away isn't a option. Long story short how can one have an advantage on a F4U (unless they are busy with somebody else and you can sneek up on them) when they most of the time get the jump on you? So what would my options be when in a spit 16vs a F4U in general fighting and during a merge?

[Saxman]

I wouldn't assume the F4U pilot is always going to go into any sort of extended nose-low maneuver on merge. I do this on the initial merge, but only to build some extra E, give him a more difficult snap-shot (closing rate + deflection angle = tougher shot to land, tho it's dangerous as I'm presenting my cockpit to him. I try to offset to the side for this reason) and avoid a HO. Once the initial merge is completed and we pass, I use that split-second where I'm under his tail and out of sight to go vertical into a hard zoom. Depending on experience level of my opponent, that's usually enough for him to lose me as he's looking LOW, while instead I went high. It's then just a matter of rolling over the top of him in a high-yo or barrel roll with a high vertical component and dropping back in on his six, especially if he's in any sort of level or nose-low turn trying to locate me. I find it very effective against inexperienced or average pilots. Occasionally this has worked against more experienced/veteran pilots, though generally I need a few more moves from this point to complete the kill.

Otherwise, the only time I enter an extended dive is if I'm in trouble and am looking to get out of the fight. I always try to stay high.

[SgtPappy]

The problem is not defeating a good 4-hog pilot in a Spitfire. I could never do it. The best a really good Spit pilot will be able to do against a real good 4-Hog pilot is survive since the faster Hog can dictate the fight. At the end of the day, the perfect spit and the perfect hog pilot will not have touched each other at all.

The problem with the Corsair IMO is only that when it turns tight, it cant hold E well due to the flaps and when it does hold E well, it can't turn well. This is why the best hog pilots wont drop the flaps past 20 degrees most of the time. The fact the the aircraft rolls only well usually above 200 IAS is an advantage a Spitfire, particularly the XVI, can use.

The problem is defeating a 4-hog in a P-38J... I've tried and only won against completely inexperienced hog pilots.

[BaldEagl]

We all know saxman loves his Hogs and he paints a picture that they can't be beat by a Spit.  In fact they can.

Understand that there are differences among the Hogs.  The D is probably the easiest to beat.  I think it's heavier than the others and is usually flown by less experienced Jabo pilots.

The C is also fairly easy to beat as long as you don't EVER let him get a gun solution on you.  Against equal pilots the Spit XVI/C-Hog dual is pretty equal.  I've gone several rounds in this match-up against some very good C-Hog sticks.

The 1A is a bit trickier.  It's more nimble and is usually flown by better than average fighter sticks.

I don't run into many 1's.

The 4 is simply a speed demon.

The best advice given here was when Yenny said "So use turn fighting on the Corsair until it start using flaps to compete, then start climbing against it."

Get the Hog turning and get him turning hard.  Keep your flaps up.  You've got plenty of turn rate until he drops his flaps.  Once the flaps are out in a hard turn the Hogs bleed E quickly.  The Spit can then exploit it's acceleration and 4000 ft/minute WEP climb rate to take the fight vertical.  The Hog will try to follow and might attempt a nose high shot but he'll have to drop the nose pretty quickly and may be wobbling on his shot attempt.  The spiral climb works great agianst that wobbly nose high shot BTW.  Then it's a matter of keeping the pressure on him by fighting in the vert.  Climb, reverse, drop on him.  Rinse and repeat.  He'll be forced to continue turning to avoid your shots, never regaining his lost E.

As to the co-alt merge there's really no difference.  Get him turning hard.  Once he bleeds E his only option will be to go nose low and try to outrun you to the deck.  Be ready for it.  You've got a momentary acceleration advantage to take the six shot.  Even if you chase him down the same thing applies unless he just runs from you.

While not great, over the past six months I have 53 kills of Hogs vs 20 deaths by hogs.  36% of all my fighter sorties are in the Spit XVI over that period.  I really don't give the F4U any more or less consideration than any other plane in the set when engaging one.  [EDIT]  Forgot to mention that many of my deaths to Hogs (maybe half or more) are being Jabo'd while in GV's so the air to air numbers are actually a lot better.

[Saxman]

You'll notice the operative part in all this is getting the Hog to bleed itself of E. You'll also notice that my position from the start was that a good Hog stick won't let you do that. He'll keep his energy state in a range where he can use his superior zoom to counter the Spit's advantage in sustained climb, and will only use one MAYBE two notches of flaps in maneuvers, and even then only long enough to get the nose around. The Spit's acceleration loses its luster above 300mph when she begins nearing her level speed cap, and in high speed maneuverability (rate of roll and turning capability) the advantage is in the hands of the F4U.

This is how I fight in the F4Us. If at all possible I stay above the Spit, and keep the fight open and fast, working flaps up and down to get a quick corner with one or two notches, which is generally enough to haul the nose around for a shot and tucking them away immediately so I don't blow all my E turning. I avoid sustained turning fights where my speed gets down and the Spit gains the energy advantage due to acceleration and sustained climb.

[BaldEagl]

Do you ever get tired of describing how you're the best F4U stick on the planet?

The guy asks how to beat the Hog and all you do is keep bragging about how good you are.   

[ink]

i kill em both in my Huuri2c. quit easily, until i find a stick that knows his plane, well then i ether die or its not so easy to kill em, or get picked by some BnZ dweeb.

oh sorry for the heist. im such a rude Bastage.

[BnZ]

The best advice given here was when Yenny said "So use turn fighting on the Corsair until it start using flaps to compete, then start climbing against it."

I dont' mind you confusing the two of us B.E., but Yenny might take it as a mortal instult

BTW, someone mentioned drag on radial engines. Properly cowled, radial engines aren't much draggier than the best liquid-cooled inline designs. Some of the fastest planes ever designed (F4U, La7, Sea Fury, F8F) use radial engines. The holder of the speed record (528 mph) for piston aircraft, Rare Bear, is a highly modified F8F Bearcat.

[Vantec]

In all fairness I see both of your points, Bald that helps out alot that at least gives me some tactic I can use and at least gives me a fighting chance, and is something I did not know thanks alot for that information. On the other hand a good pilot (such as Saxman) he knows my plane as well and will know how not to get in that situation, so its just the matter of who makes the pilot error first, I have been experimenting in a HurryCII actually but I feel I can beat a F4U so long as I keep to one plane (Spit16) at least while in the learning curve for this game. Once I get comfortable I might move on to something more advanced but getting there is easier said than done. At least this information is out here on these forums for any new pilot. My advise for them is knowing your enemy's plane is half the game, learning as much as I can now will help me and others improve there pilot skills later on. Great thread for learning and I'm always up for learning new things              

[Patches1]

Wanna beat an F4U?   Just get on my six!