How to beat the f4u ?

[hlbly]

Good to see an old friend show back up, will try and catch ya online hlbly........and help ya if I can  ~SALUTE~

Look forward to it my brother .

[BaldEagl]

I was not going to post to this thread until I saw this,  BaldEagl, I praised and saluted you for the fun fights, although I knew going into it the following: "YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO TURN FIGHT TYPHOONS AGAINST SPITFIRES"........ as for the killing me three times WTG, awesome <golf Clap>.......now to put it in a more meaningful context, I will be glad to meet you in the DA at anytime you like and fly against you in a 1 vs 1 environment, so you can come back and say you beat me THREE times.......the film of that night when you got those 3 kills, was always multiple enemy vs Me..the 1st one was you in your spitfire and an La7, the second involved 2 or 3 spitfires,  1 P51, 1 c205 and 1 La7..........the one you got me where I was in a Hog, was also multiple enemy vs me..........so I really do not understand how you posting the above has any value to what you are claiming, Sir...... in all seriousness, the post I have quoted you on above has no place in the Training and help forum..........

I knew you'de jump in and I have to correct you TC.  In the first fight you started with a 4-5K alt advantage on me but it was one on one the entire way.  Yes, you did have the balls to turn fight me with a Typhoon, but it wasn't multiple on one.

In the fight with you in the F4U, in fairness, it did start two on one but two of your countrymen in P-51D's soon joined the fight.  If you recall, you said on text that you thought i had left the fight.  I mentined that I had extended out to get a better grip on where those BnZ ponies were as I had lost vis on them.

Saying I beat you wasn't meant as a brag against you.  I brought it up only in response to saxman's claim that a Spit couldn't beat certain pilots.  It just happened you were mentioned.  If you want to duel, then fine, I'll be glad to do so at our mutual convenience but it won't be to prove anything on my part.  I'll take my beating, or not, in fun.

I'll offer an appology to saxman, even though I believe his bias toward the F4U, and bias against the Spit, as seen in this and many other threads is just a little over the top.  I went over the top myself when he immediately responded against my post.  He has done so in the past with me in Spit vs Hog threads and I guess this time it just pushed me over the edge.  That said, I was out of line and I appologize.  As I said in my second post, we all know saxman loves his Hogs.

[TequilaChaser]

I knew you'de jump in and I have to correct you TC.  In the first fight you started with a 4-5K alt advantage on me but it was one on one the entire way.  Yes, you did have the balls to turn fight me with a Typhoon, but it wasn't multiple on one.

In the fight with you in the F4U, in fairness, it did start two on one but two of your countrymen in P-51D's soon joined the fight.  If you recall, you said on text that you thought i had left the fight.  I mentined that I had extended out to get a better grip on where those BnZ ponies were as I had lost vis on them.

Saying I beat you wasn't meant as a brag against you.  I brought it up only in response to saxman's claim that a Spit couldn't beat certain pilots.  It just happened you were mentioned.  If you want to duel, then fine, I'll be glad to do so at our mutual convenience but it won't be to prove anything on my part.  I'll take my beating, or not, in fun.

I'll offer an appology to saxman, even though I believe his bias toward the F4U, and bias against the Spit, as seen in this and many other threads is just a little over the top.  I went over the top myself when he immediately responded against my post.  He has done so in the past with me in Spit vs Hog threads and I guess this time it just pushed me over the edge.  That said, I was out of line and I appologize.  As I said in my second post, we all know saxman loves his Hogs.

Honestly Bald, I could care less if I can beat you or you can beat me,  I appreciate your cander in apologizing for the little flamefest you and Sax may have had.......

as for correcting me, don't correct me unless you know without a doubt you are 100% correct yourself........I will leave it at that........I can email you the 3 films if you want to correct me on this particular night we ran into each other.........yes I went AFK and flew damn near across the map and was 36K in a Typh.I came back and I dropped altitude til I was co-alt and nearly co-speed when I engaged........and as I stated all 3 fights was multiple .......

but it really does not matter either way...what matters is not bioching with others, and providing answers to peoples questions and helping others

~SALUTE~  it all plays........

[mtnman]

The simple fact on the Spit vs F4U thing (like other dissimilar plane match-ups) is that in order for the spit to prevail he needs to get the faster F4U slow and "pinned down" and minimize his options.  If he (the spit) doesn't, he can't expect to win against it on a regular basis.

The simple fact of the matter is that if the Hog has speed and/or alt he can dictate the terms of the fight, and should be expected to do so in his favor.  As a hog pilot I honestly look at Spits, Hurri's, Zeke's, and N1K's as just another scalp to hang on my lodgepole.  If they're lower/slower than me, I can kill them at will.  They may squirm around a bit and make things interesting, but unless they get me to make a mistake and blow my E to where they can keep the fight very "tight" they're in trouble, and I'm not.  If I have 4-5K alt above ground they really can't do much to me unless I let them (I make a mistake).  A good spit (or insert other plane) pilot can be a handfull for sure, but again, can't do much if the F4U doesn't play by his "rules".

If they come in higher they're a threat (but only because they have enough speed to get/stay close to me), but really only until I can fool them into putting themselves in a bad position.  Then they'll normally revert back to a tight turn to block my shot, and if I fly E-conservatively for a few seconds I'm back in charge.  That's the beauty of the faster plane types.  If I'm faster, I can dictate the fight, and if I have enough alt I can scrub E/speed at will, briefly, without too much danger because I can simply go nose-down for speed again if I want/need to.  Again, the choices are mine because my plane choice allows me to dictate the fight.

As Saxman mentioned, a "smart" hog pilot won't allow the spit pilot to dictate the fight, or to fool him into getting low and slow and "pinned down".  As BaldEagl mentioned, the spit can prevail over the hog if he flies "smarter" than the hog and convinces the hog pilot to screw up, and then is able to quickly capitolize on that mistake before the hog pilot can take control again.  The closer to the ground and the slower the F4U is, the better for the spit (notice I said slow F4U, not slow Spit).

So, that basically means that for the spit to prevail he needs to get the F4U to fight on the Spits terms.  For the spit to control the fight he needs to maintain enough E to keep enough speed to make repeated slashing attacks on the Hog, and keep the Hog dodging, blowing his energy, and getting trapped.  Can the spit slow down and "saddle-up" on the hog's six?  Sure, but he'd better end the fight quickly, or the hog can take it over again.  If the hog is allowed to sneak out and extend to get speed back the Spit is now pinned down and unable to get away.  Saddling up is fine if you can end it quickly, but dangerous if you can't.  Basically, the spit needs to switch gears to an E-fighting mode, where we normally see them used in a TnB mode of fighting.

Unless the spit has enough E/speed to control the hog, he's not dictating the fight.  The same can be said for spits (or other "slow" planes) fighting ponies, 190's, 109's (or any other "faster" planes).

Or for that matter, my wife's cat vs my dog (JR Terrier)(He has abnormally fast speed for a JR).  The cat lives outside, the dog lives inside.  The dog RULES the ENTIRE YARD!  But the cat RULES the PORCH.  If the cat strays out into the yard, the dog chases her without mercy, and eventually she goes up into a tree until he goes away (long time, hehe, he's crazy about chasin'!).

But here's the kicker.  The cat rules the porch, which the dog uses to enter and exit the house.  On the porch, the cat can back into any number of places, and is awful formidable from the front end with her teeth and claws.  She's also able to launch attacks, since she has safety so close behind her.  She'll chase the dog off the porch, and set up on the steps and WON"T ALLOW him to come back up.  She has food/water on the porch, and has no reason to leave.  He sits out in the yard and whines until we come rescue him and escort him back inside!

See the correllation?  Both have strengths and weaknesses, can dictate the fight under certain circumstances, and both are vulnerable in other situations.  Recognize how/where you can dictate the fight, and use that to your advantage...

[Spanky38]

As a green F4U driver. I wanted to extend a THANK YOU to mtnman, saxman and all the others whom have contributed to this post.

I know the post is "How to beat the F4U". But I've picked up more from these replies than the 2-3 mo. I've been flying.

I am/was the poor fool dropping my flaps and gear trying to turn with the Spit and 109's well bellow 5000K, with the stall horn blaring at me like its my wife wanting to know why the honey do list isn't done yet. only to find my self back in the tower of the Field or CV I launched from scratching my head wondering WTF just happend

[TequilaChaser]

As a green F4U driver. I wanted to extend a THANK YOU to mtnman, saxman and all the others whom have contributed to this post.

I know the post is "How to beat the F4U". But I've picked up more from these replies than the 2-3 mo. I've been flying.

I am/was the poor fool dropping my flaps and gear trying to turn with the Spit and 109's well bellow 5000K, with the stall horn blaring at me like its my wife wanting to know why the honey do list isn't done yet. only to find my self back in the tower of the Field or CV I launched from scratching my head wondering WTF just happend

Alot of people suggest "drop Gear"  in the hog, and only in extreme circumstances should one be doing this, for it scrubs off TOO MUCH E that is hard to reaquire in the same significant amount of time, especially when turn fighting certian planes.........

Nice Post, mtnman <thumbsup>

[Vudak]

Alot of people suggest "drop Gear"  in the hog, and only in extreme circumstances should one be doing this, for it scrubs off TOO MUCH E that is hard to reaquire in the same significant amount of time, especially when turn fighting certian planes.........

Nice Post, mtnman <thumbsup>

I've found that dropping gear at the merge briefly can really help you match a Spit's initial move...  But I suppose committing to a do or die knife fight vs. one would be an "extreme circumstance," anyway

Then again, I'm just that idiot who likes to try and beat people at their own game, and I usually wind up in the tower early for my troubles.  (Worth noting, it's not quite as usual as it was when I first started trying it...)

I'm just saying, if you're scrubbing too much E on purpose and with intent it's a different ballgame, but you'd better know you're doing that and have a plan with it.

Btw...  "Caecina" = Vudak...  Know Skuzzy frowns upon "two" people posting in same thread.  Just got my old name back yesterday.

[Jenks]

Vudak can knife fight with the Corsair. I knows from esperryence.  <S> Vudak, glad to see you back

[Sonicblu]

Just fly the f4u for awhile that is the best way to learn its strength and  weakness. It is best to spend enough time to get good in it.

Hope this helps.

Your first merge will tell you alot about the pilot in any plane, or how they enter the merge. It is this information that is best used to defeat the f4u + knowing what the plane can or can't do.

As far as a direct answer to your question bnz and some of the others have it right.

[hlbly]

Guys wonderful posts Vudak thanks for the help . Wont bore you with screen shots but i want to share this encounter . In the DA myself in a mk9 nme pilot in f4u4 . I am about 80 mph faster they are about 1000 feet higher .<pretty equal e imho>. nobody else around . Nice fight but the nicest part I happened to prevail . I wont mention pilots name because I don't want to embarrass them but they are a good stick who was routinely beating me before . I cant thank all of you enough .

[Gixer]

Bleed their E then once they start using the flaps and gear dweebery go verticle, rope the dope, drop down and take the shot. Don't fly to their planes advantage low speed rolls and turns with flaps unless your in a zeke or FM2 etc you'll be back in the tower.

Nothing sweeter then killing C-Hogs. 


<S>...-Gixer

[SgtPappy]

Recently I've been having problems fighting slippery types. Namely the Hurrincanes, sometimes Zekes and SpitV/IX/VIII's. Of course, there's no problem running to extend but what after that? They'll almost always use their better sustained climbing advantage against me and all I can do is zoom. By this time, the e/a is almost within firing range so gotta shallow dive or just run and we're at square 1 just with a little more alt.

Against the offline AI, something that's always worked against them (or worked for them when I was on their tails) was somewhat of a flat scissors but stuck in the vertical plane rather than in the horizontal plane. First I'd cut throttle almost to nil I'd pull up and as soon as they start to gain a lead (or right before) I'd flip over and pull up again. Just before they gain a lead, I flip over again and pull up continuing the process until they either overshoot or they break off.

Don't know how that would work against human players though. It usually works when the AI uses it against me hehe.

[Saxman]

What you describe is more or less a rolling scissors.

[SgtPappy]

That's what I thought too when I read what I wrote. However, it's completely different.

A rolling scissors (if you think about it) stays in the horizontal plain as a whole maneuver. Vertical element is added by the rolling but the entire helix is stretched across the sky horizontally. This maneuver that I described is different in that it requires a good amount of altitude as it is a diving maneuver. Nor is the maneuver a helix. I haven't the foggiest on how to post films but perhaps someone can post it for me as the AI do it all the time as a defensive maneuver in order to get the fight faster.

Imagine flying straight and level then going inverted; 180 degrees and pulling up. By the time you get to the other side, you're obviously not inverted anymore. Then go inverted again and pull up, and you end up in essentially the same position. There is actually no 3D element or helix to it, but the maneuver extends downward since you're gaining speed and you flip over inverted relative to your previous position when the enemy is about to get a lead on you.

[BnZ]

Series of Split Ss....when you think about it, its a flat scissors except going down.

That's what I thought too when I read what I wrote. However, it's completely different.

A rolling scissors (if you think about it) stays in the horizontal plain as a whole maneuver. Vertical element is added by the rolling but the entire helix is stretched across the sky horizontally. This maneuver that I described is different in that it requires a good amount of altitude as it is a diving maneuver. Nor is the maneuver a helix. I haven't the foggiest on how to post films but perhaps someone can post it for me as the AI do it all the time as a defensive maneuver in order to get the fight faster.

Imagine flying straight and level then going inverted; 180 degrees and pulling up. By the time you get to the other side, you're obviously not inverted anymore. Then go inverted again and pull up, and you end up in essentially the same position. There is actually no 3D element or helix to it, but the maneuver extends downward since you're gaining speed and you flip over inverted relative to your previous position when the enemy is about to get a lead on you.