Author Topic: Questions with death  (Read 7229 times)

Offline Simaril

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2008, 08:49:44 PM »
Life is an experience. It has NOTHING to do with right and wrong, good or evil. How we conduct ourselves depends entirely on how we view our own value.
Religion is merely a social construct that helps to define a cohesive set of values that tie a particular community together and equip it to deal with the environment in which they live. When prehistoric man discovered they had a better chance of surviving if they banded together, they began to share their interpretations of the unusual things they noticed in their daily lives, and how they overcame these obstacles. As a means necessary for survival they were passed down orally through the generations, these tales became legends which in the passage of time became woven together as a guide for survival and provided simple explanations for the more unusual inexplicable phenomenon attributed to the supernatural. Different perspectives defined different cultural groups, each having their own belief and these beliefs soon became religions.
Wars would be fought between different cultural groups based entirely on who's golden calf was the biggest and shiniest. The only reason most of the world today is either Christian, Moslem or Jewish is because they had bigger more efficient means of killing those that did not follow their beliefs.

SD,

It's a lot more helpful -- and more conducive to discussion -- if you talk about the basis of your conclusions before making blanket statements. Naturally you're entitled to your opinion, but if someone's really trying to explain what they think to Oogly and the rest of us it would make sense to explain why they've taken their position, and why it should be taken more seriously than a random "man on the street" interview.

Just sayin, no offense intended.
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
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Offline SD67

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2008, 09:11:55 PM »
It's a bit hard to give you that which you seek. All I was trying to put forth was a way of describing the rise of religion as we know it, and how it becomes integrated into a society.
Most of this is coming from what I experienced when I was a communicant member of the Free Presbyterian Church of Australia and a member of the Church council, what I experienced during my few minutes of death in the late 80's and what I learned studying sociology when I did my B.A. I don't have any reference material on hand.
If you want to know what I actually believe:
No explanation is wanted or needed.  To explain something to become attached to both the thing and the explanation, to own it.  Ownership is a delusion, because all is impermanent.
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Offline Simaril

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #122 on: July 06, 2008, 01:25:49 PM »
SD and Xasthur:

Hope you guys had a good weekend.

It sounds like both of you have had some seriously negative experiences with people who call themselves Christians...serious enough that they made you skeptical about the whole foundation of the belief system. That doesn't mean that those peoples' actions MADE reject Christianity, though it sounds like they played a role. What other things make the whole idea impossible for you?
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

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Offline SD67

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2008, 04:31:48 PM »
I cannot say that anything MADE me reject the idea, I just outgrew it as my knowledge base increased.
Apart from one incident when I was very young, I have probably had more negative interaction with non christians, that only serves to reinforce the point that christianity does provide a good framework for a positive existence.
9GIAP VVS RKKA
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Fabricati diem, punc
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2008, 12:02:19 AM »
I cannot say that anything MADE me reject the idea, I just outgrew it as my knowledge base increased.
Apart from one incident when I was very young, I have probably had more negative interaction with non christians, that only serves to reinforce the point that christianity does provide a good framework for a positive existence.

Christ was either the son of God or the biggest fraud of all time. Christianity is either the way to salvation or the biggest waste of time there is. I won't buy it is false but still good for society.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Xasthur

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2008, 12:37:44 AM »
Perhaps God was punishing me for questioning Him and his almighty ways but I've been stricken with gastro for the last few days, so to say that my weekend 'blew' would be quite an understatement!  :lol

I hope yours was better, Sim.

As far as religion goes in our day and age, I consider Christianity to be relatively harmless. This was not the case in the past but times have changed and the Christians of today don't cause any problems for me. Christianity has just been the easiest point to discuss in this thread because most people participating are Christian and I was educated in Catholic schools so I couldn't help but pick a few things about the religion along the way. My musical interests have always been on the heavier side of things and my favourite style of music originated in Scandinavia and has always had a very strong anti-Christian theme. I've never fully identified with their militant view against Christians because I come from a Christian country but their heritage of paganism and vikings was 'converted' to Christianity and they feel that their country has been taken from them. Their lyrics and imagery have also lead me to read further into Christianity so I feel that I know Christianity a little better than other major religions.

Religion itself is what I cannot accept as it provides a cause for people to die and kill for, hence why I find Christianity relatively harmless these days... not many suicide bombing priests  :lol. However, jokes aside, one only needs to look to the endless fighting in Israel to see the full extent of disgusting, wretched, ignorant, religious fools who fight and die for something they cannot prove. It is this utterly blind, willful ignorance that leads me to believe the very idea of a monolithic structure of beliefs 'to be held above all others' is a fundamentally bad idea. I consider the main problem with the general human understanding of divinity is that it must be a shared experience. If religion became an individualistic experience in which one embraced some sort of divinity that emanated from within themselves I don't think religion would be a problem. This is something of a 'satanic' attitude, I realise, but I do believe that it is a less inherently conflict-inducing understanding of divinity, provided you stay away from the 'evil' that some people embrace with that internal understanding of the divine.

Religion wouldn't concern me if it was followed entirely by level-headed people like yourself, Simaril. The problem is that this is most certainly not the case and religion provides a very big banner for the brainless scum of the earth to flock to.

To answer your question directly, I've not had any seriously negative experiences with Christian people... I've met some very, very simple people who preach God's word and also people who were so insulated from what was going on around them by their silly white robes that were completely out of touch with life altogether. I've also met some very wise and genuine people who heard God's call and these were guys were outstanding teachers who made the passage through high school easier than it would have otherwise been. The men who wore the robes all seemed quite miserable, actually. It was the regular guys with wives and kids who taught the important fundamental Christian values that seemed to have the best grip on life as far as religious experience goes. That suggests to me that it is a respectful moral code that one needs to follow, not any divine figure, that will lead one to a happy and successful existence.

That is the base of the way I view the world at this point (which will always be subject to change until the day I die).

 :salute
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Offline Xasthur

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2008, 12:45:45 AM »
SD and Xasthur:

The godless heathens from the land down under!  :rock  :lol
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #127 on: July 09, 2008, 06:19:22 PM »
As far as religion goes in our day and age...

Sheesh Xasthur!  You summed it up very well!  I can't even think of anything to disagree with...

I personally find religion in general to be a hugely interesting thing.  Definately not my "cup-o-tea"- but I find it intriguing to see what others believe, and why they believe it.

One question I've never found what I consider a satisfying answer to, regarding choice of religion, is this-  What made you (a general "you") choose the religion you've chosen.  So far, all I've ever gotten is more or less a basic "Huh, I don't know, it's just what I believe in."  Most seem to just accept the religion of their parents, who accepted the religion of thiers, who accepted the religion of thiers...  Or, if a move occurred (a geographic relocation) a similar, locally popular version seems to be accepted by "default". 

For example, I was raised Protestant (consider myself religionless now...) in Illinois.  I married, and now live near my wife's family in Wisconsin, where the predominate version is Lutheran.  I could/would normally switch to Lutheran, again mostly by what I would consider as "default".  But why?

If the everlasting exists, and it's your soul at stake, why not do some research, and pick the religion that makes the most sense?  Why take a gamble, that you're relaitives have made the right choice, by not really choosing at all?  Seems awful "iffy".

MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #128 on: July 09, 2008, 06:34:54 PM »
sorry.. the right and wrong without a religion thing doesn't fly on the happy/unhappy scale.

There are plenty that would not be missed.. a bum causes you to have to see and smell him.. no one likes him but he is doing no real harm.  you kill him.. you are happy..the people who had to smell and see him SHOULD be happy... no one knew or liked him so no one SHOULD suffer.. is the killing moral?

Of course not but.. why not?   the people who SHOULD be unaffected or happier are not.. why is that?  they sense an injustice..  they know it is immoral to kill without reason...  their god tells them so.

lazs

This isn't discrediting the happy/unhappy theory.  It's simply saying that A) it's immoral to kill someone, even if he/she isn't popular.  And that a "social discomfort" would still occur, even if nobody was directly involved.  That "social discomfort" or "unhappiness" is what decides the morality issue.
MtnMan

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Offline RedTop

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2008, 06:51:27 PM »
Oogly.....

Life is but a grain of sand in the hour glass of time dude. I used to worry about it....at times. Not often...now after going thru what my wife and I have been thru with the passing of my Mom....I don't sweat it.

As far as your belief goes.... Nothing anyone can say will prove that God is real or not. With time , age , maturity you'll believe what you want. Something may happen in your life that changes the way you believe. Nothing may happen and you die believing what you did for years.

One thing I do know. For me personally ,and the up bringing I had and still continue to get at the age of 45 my belief system tells me that there is a heavan , and a God. And believeing that one day , I will see all of those that have went before me , family and freinds alike helps ME to deal with issues.

Don't dwell on dying. Dwell on living. It's so much more fun and rewarding.
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Offline RedTop

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #130 on: July 09, 2008, 07:10:16 PM »
Eduard Delacroix: [in the electric chair, about to be executed] Don't forgot about Mouseville.
[Paul and Brutal nod]
Percy Wetmore: Hey. There's no such place. It's just a fairytale these guys told you to keep you quiet. Just thought you should know, studgot.
-The Green Mile



There ain't no Mouseville and there ain't no Heaven- once you're gone you'll never again feel the shock of jumping into a cold pool of water, the warm sun on your shoulders, the smell of a fresh cut lawn- You're just gone, and those left behind will miss you terribly forever.

And if by chance your wrong....some of us wont be seeing you there. 
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Offline kennyhayes

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #131 on: July 09, 2008, 07:27:14 PM »
your getting something lodgeg in you (#&29

Offline Motherland

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #132 on: July 09, 2008, 07:42:05 PM »
sorry.. the right and wrong without a religion thing doesn't fly on the happy/unhappy scale.

There are plenty that would not be missed.. a bum causes you to have to see and smell him.. no one likes him but he is doing no real harm.  you kill him.. you are happy..the people who had to smell and see him SHOULD be happy... no one knew or liked him so no one SHOULD suffer.. is the killing moral?

Of course not but.. why not?   the people who SHOULD be unaffected or happier are not.. why is that?  they sense an injustice..  they know it is immoral to kill without reason...  their god tells them so.

lazs
If the only reason they think that is immoral is because a 'god' tells them it is then they have some problems.

Offline Baitman

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #133 on: July 09, 2008, 08:23:55 PM »
Go outside on a moonless night and look up into the sky. If you can imagine that we are the only life on all those star systems than you can believe in God.  :pray

There are an estimated 10^10 (10 billion) stars in the Milky Way..
there are an estimated 10^10 galaxies in the universe.. (pretty easy to remember
so far, huh? ...*grin*) so that makes 10^20 stars total.

Even Vegas would have odds on other intelligent life out there. :noid :noid

When we die we will all return to the alien ship that is on the other side of the moon. :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline trax1

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Re: Questions with death
« Reply #134 on: July 09, 2008, 11:32:42 PM »
There are an estimated 10^10 (10 billion) stars in the Milky Way..
there are an estimated 10^10 galaxies in the universe.. (pretty easy to remember
so far, huh? ...*grin*) so that makes 10^20 stars total.
Theres an easier way to express the number of stars in the universe, there are more stars in the universe then grains of sand on all the beaches of Earth, and it's kinda small minded to think were the only grain of sand that has life.

As for God I just don't see it, I guess I'm just too scientific when it comes to those things, like if God created the Earth, then why was the Earth around for a couple billion years before man was on it, or why dinosaurs were here for millions of years before us, and finally how do you explain the remains of lower forms of human life that have been found that show evolution.   
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