Author Topic: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang  (Read 5175 times)

Offline soda72

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2008, 02:30:18 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/09/travelandtransport.carbonemissions

http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/

I think altairnano's Lithium-titanate battery is being used with that car as well....

Next two or three years we may seem some interesting EV development...

Offline Fulmar

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2008, 03:47:37 PM »
The problem with Lithium-Ion cells is that even though they held more advantages over NiMH (found in your Prius and other hybrids on the road today), they couldn't deliver high output electrical surges.  Granted in a hybrid the gas engine could take over for this when needed in fast acceleration, but in a total electric car you'd be seeing some problems.

But if all pans out with Lithium-titanate, pure electric cars could really prove feasible on a large scale.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2008, 04:00:48 PM »
The problem with Lithium-Ion cells is that even though they held more advantages over NiMH (found in your Prius and other hybrids on the road today), they couldn't deliver high output electrical surges.  Granted in a hybrid the gas engine could take over for this when needed in fast acceleration, but in a total electric car you'd be seeing some problems.

But if all pans out with Lithium-titanate, pure electric cars could really prove feasible on a large scale.

problem with pure elecrtric cars is that you have to recharge them sometime. you're not cleaning anything. you're only moving the source of polution.
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Offline Fulmar

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2008, 04:11:05 PM »
problem with pure elecrtric cars is that you have to recharge them sometime. you're not cleaning anything. you're only moving the source of polution.
Lithium-titanate, from the claims can charge insanely fast as compared to Lithium-Ion.  The fastest Li-Ion cells can do about a 2.0C rate.  E.g. A battery can charge from 0-100% in 30 minutes (1.0C being 1 hour).  IIRC, titanate can do 10C as it claims.  I'd wait 6 minutes to charge my battery.

Or what if I mounted solar panels on the roof of my car, and at least extend the range on the batteries before I need to pull over and charge my battery.

However, any battery that charges at a high rate is going to generate a lot of heat, so insulation will be key.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2008, 04:45:43 PM »
Lithium-titanate, from the claims can charge insanely fast as compared to Lithium-Ion.  The fastest Li-Ion cells can do about a 2.0C rate.  E.g. A battery can charge from 0-100% in 30 minutes (1.0C being 1 hour).  IIRC, titanate can do 10C as it claims.  I'd wait 6 minutes to charge my battery.

Or what if I mounted solar panels on the roof of my car, and at least extend the range on the batteries before I need to pull over and charge my battery.

However, any battery that charges at a high rate is going to generate a lot of heat, so insulation will be key.

insulation and wear. when you generate heat like that, you create wear too.

the lithium ion battaries i use in my electric models are very small.......2100MAH, 3 cell. flying a 36" span corsair, with a small outrunner, and i 20amp max(i think) speed controller, i've recorded that battery at over 100 degrees. i always let it cool before charging.

 what we need is impulse drives for our cars :D
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Offline soda72

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2008, 07:43:49 PM »
The problem with Lithium-Ion cells is that even though they held more advantages over NiMH (found in your Prius and other hybrids on the road today), they couldn't deliver high output electrical surges.  Granted in a hybrid the gas engine could take over for this when needed in fast acceleration, but in a total electric car you'd be seeing some problems.

But if all pans out with Lithium-titanate, pure electric cars could really prove feasible on a large scale.

Tesla motors did a decent job using Lithium-ion batteries to deliver a fast 0-60 time in 4 seconds,

Tesla motors

I'm assuming they are using the standard lithium-ion battery.  I wonder how they handle safety for it.

The last part of the video shows 'Thermal runway'(a politically correct way to say the battery explodes) with a standard lithium-ion battery during nail penetration..   However it looks like A123system has developed a lithium battery that does not do that. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg

altairnano's Lithium-titanate avoids the 'thermal runway' as well..

[edit]
hmmm tesla doing 120 at le mans... cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMUuEEd2jws&feature=user






« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 09:39:11 PM by soda72 »

Offline CAP1

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2008, 10:39:23 PM »
Tesla motors did a decent job using Lithium-ion batteries to deliver a fast 0-60 time in 4 seconds,

Tesla motors

I'm assuming they are using the standard lithium-ion battery.  I wonder how they handle safety for it.

The last part of the video shows 'Thermal runway'(a politically correct way to say the battery explodes) with a standard lithium-ion battery during nail penetration..   However it looks like A123system has developed a lithium battery that does not do that. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg

altairnano's Lithium-titanate avoids the 'thermal runway' as well..

[edit]
hmmm tesla doing 120 at le mans... cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMUuEEd2jws&feature=user








i am by no means a chemist, but i think it is the lithium in the lithium ion and the lithium polymer batteries that reacts with the air. expose it, and it kinda sorta explodes.

 again, when we use the small ones in our model aircraft, if we crash, and the pack doesn't fire up right then, we generally cannot re-use them, as they are dangerous at that point.
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Offline SD67

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2008, 10:51:34 PM »
The Lithium won't explode. It will however oxidise rapidly, turning black on the surface first then degrading into a black crumbling mass.
Sodium is pretty reactive, it will burn on contact wit the air and can explode when immersed in water.
Potassium is a much better one, it can have an extremely violent reaction.
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Offline soda72

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2008, 10:55:21 PM »
I stand corrected... It does not explode, it just 'vents violently'...

 :devil



[edit]

another video of lithium ion 'venting violently' when it is overcharged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5f0VCoFuFM&feature=related

Lithium Polymer 'venting violently'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQjudHKh-bI&feature=related
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 11:18:03 PM by soda72 »

Offline Maverick

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2008, 11:24:57 PM »
lab work and reality are like theory and reality. they seldom agree, and reality almost always wins........

If you had something to say here you failed to really communicate anything.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2008, 11:29:11 PM »
I stand corrected... It does not explode, it just 'vents violently'...

 :devil



[edit]

another video of lithium ion 'venting violently' when it is overcharged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5f0VCoFuFM&feature=related

Lithium Polymer 'venting violently'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQjudHKh-bI&feature=related


that's what i was trying to say! :D
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2008, 11:38:24 PM »
If you had something to say here you failed to really communicate anything.

ok.......in theory, things almost always work the exact way they're intended. then you it out into reality, and build it. it never does what you expect it to. so...theory and reality disagreed....reality won.


hornet is doing the dyno tests as you want....and i can't wait to see the results....good or bad.

but as he's stated to you, no matter hwat all of your figuring and numbers crunching is telling you, the reality of the mater is that there's hundreds of people that've put these things on their cars, and gained improvement.
 reality cannot be argued. if one drives the same places each day, and fills their tank every 3 days, then installs one of these units, and suddenly is only filling up every 4 or 5 days, what lab work is needed? what else could've changed it? littel green men from mars?

 sorry if i'm sounding like i'm being rude, but i've seen the reports too. talked with some that've tried this. i didn;'t think something like this could or would work, but now i'm in the process of building a small unit to try on my geo. it gets 35 mpg right now. i drive the exact same areas day in and day out. i know what my car does. i've just this week started keeping it on paper.  i get the feeling i'm going to end up topping 40mpg.

 if this helps my geo this much, you can bet there's gonna be a bigger one on my dakota.


 so i guess that what i'm saying is that if john smith was burning 60 gallons a week, and now after the install, nothing else changed he's only burning 45 gallons a week, there is no need for lab testing.


 sorry if ya didn't understand that. :D
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2008, 11:59:08 PM »
I was figuring you were trying to convey something like what you finally did state outright. Lets look at something here, in reality.

You state that many folks have used the gadget and "claim" there was an improvement. They have no real data to back it up other than their claims which are subjectively based. There are so many variables that using this kind of "proof" is not testing the gadget but the environment, driver's competence, fuel quality / formulation, weather, road surface, tires and so on. Not the least of which is the drivers expectation that they are going to have some kind of improvement after shelling out the money. The real "reality" of the situation is that there is no verified third party proof that the gadget works as claimed. You saying it works is not proof, it's another claim until actually tested.

The lab, Dyno actually, is a far better determiner of a real change in performance. It's a pretty common and industry accepted testing environment where all the other variables can be eliminated. It's not theory, it's practice testing the theory of the gadgets claims of better power, mileage and so on. That's the reality of using a scientific test to prove the claims of the inventor / vendor.

When the folks who made the gadget are unwilling to put it to the test that tells me they are into snake oil not real engineering. I am more than extremely skeptical when they didn't go to the normal step of actually doing a verifiable test on a dyno. This isn't number crunching by using a dyno, it's proving that there was some definable change. The theory is taking the word, untested, unverified of the manufacturer of the kit gadget as proof that you will gain anything by using his gadget and spending good money to test it yourself when they didn't have the confidence to do so themselves.
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Offline g00b

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2008, 02:14:09 AM »
Just wanted to plug my company, we make kick bellybutton electric dirt bikes.

www.zeromotorcycles.com

EV's are inevitable, just a matter of when...

Offline CAP1

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Re: Forget the 50 mpg carb; this guy has a 80 mpg Mustang
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2008, 07:40:13 AM »
Just wanted to plug my company, we make kick bellybutton electric dirt bikes.

www.zeromotorcycles.com

EV's are inevitable, just a matter of when...

i saw this site before. they are kick ass.....

but the fact still remains with electric vehicles. we're not cleaning anything up at all. we're just moving the source.

 here's another possibility. in kalifornia, where they tend to do the rolling blackouts(?). the workforce all leaves for work at 6am. on average, they'll get to the office around 7 or 8am. they pull in, park, and plug in their cars. they leave around 4pm to go home. they get home around 5 or 6pm. they plug in their cars. both times this causes a surge, and extra load on the power plants. they ramp up to handle it. they also blow out much much more pollution than gas powered cars would be. they also creat a situation where the rolling blackouts are much worse, much more often, and much longer.

 how's that helping anything?

 i realize i could be wrong on that, but it's just a thought.......
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