Author Topic: Pickers and runners please help me understand...  (Read 5405 times)

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2008, 02:21:48 PM »
I agree.  It's equivalent to picking a fist fight with someone, walking away, only to return when your friend gets involved and hitting your opponent in the head with a hammer when their back it turned.

Sure, on paper it's a win, but there are few people that would say you really won the fight. 

There's nothing "fair" about this. Unless you're Co-alt, Co-E, same load-out, in the exact same plane with no other cons intervening it's already "unfair" in some regard. There are so many variables that true "fairness" is virtually unattainable. The closest we can come to fair is each flying our respective planes  in a manner conducive to exploiting it's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses while at the same time exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent, whoever can do that better will almost always win.

The funny thing is,  if you really want to know the most fair way to fight, it's the HO.The HO is the most democratic form of engagement, a coin flip in almost every situation. So, if you want "fairness" in the MA we'd all have to fly Co-alt, Co-E, Spits with 50% gas at 2k and HO each other all day, won't that be fun...;) I personally prefer the current setup of complete "unfairness" with an almost infinite variety of adaptive styles, tactics and situations.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 02:24:07 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2008, 02:37:41 PM »
There's nothing "fair" about this. Unless you're Co-alt, Co-E, same load-out, in the exact same plane with no other cons intervening it's already "unfair" in some regard. There are so many variables that true "fairness" is virtually unattainable. The closest we can come to fair is each flying our respective planes  in a manner conducive to exploiting it's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses while at the same time exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent, whoever can do that better will almost always win.

The funny thing is,  if you really want to know the most fair way to fight, it's the HO.The HO is the most democratic form of engagement, a coin flip in almost every situation. So, if you want "fairness" in the MA we'd all have to fly Co-alt, Co-E, Spits with 50% gas at 2k and HO each other all day, won't that be fun...;) I personally prefer the current setup of complete "unfairness" with an almost infinite variety of adaptive styles, tactics and situations.

Fair ? ... we weren't debating the fairness of it all ... we were debating sack or sack-less-ness ... :confused:

Hey ... who let you out of the insane asylum anyways ? ... you, for all intents and purposes, vanished into thin air, and it now appears that you are back with a vengeance ... I like it.
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Offline Scca

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #152 on: July 10, 2008, 02:44:01 PM »
There's nothing "fair" about this. Unless you're Co-alt, Co-E, same load-out, in the exact same plane with no other cons intervening it's already "unfair" in some regard. There are so many variables that true "fairness" is virtually unattainable. The closest we can come to fair is each flying our respective planes  in a manner conducive to exploiting it's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses while at the same time exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent, whoever can do that better will almost always win.

The funny thing is,  if you really want to know the most fair way to fight, it's the HO.The HO is the most democratic form of engagement, a coin flip in almost every situation. So, if you want "fairness" in the MA we'd all have to fly Co-alt, Co-E, Spits with 50% gas at 2k and HO each other all day, won't that be fun...;) I personally prefer the current setup of complete "unfairness" with an almost infinite variety of adaptive styles, tactics and situations.

Never asked for a fair fight, just a fight, don't be confused.

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #153 on: July 10, 2008, 02:53:21 PM »

Never ... and I repeat ... never will I turn tail thinking ... zOMG there is a 109 and he just may hand me my arse so I better bug out and maybe come back and whack him while one of my countrymen has him all tied up.

I hear ya, but I am trying to avoid judging the motive of the 109 from the OP. My take on the post is a lot of time elapsed. The 109 did initially press the attack until his energy state eroded to Co-E vs. a better turner, so give him some marks there. He then disengaged and reengaged later as the 2nd in, whether he knew it was the same Spit or was just being opportunistic against "a Spit" who he found later on a wingman we can only assume, Spits aren't exactly uncommon. As I said earlier, a pilot confident in himself and his ride would have at least continued to track the opponent during the reset phase and reengaged at his earliest possible convenience. I know, when it comes to being the 2nd in, I have no problems with it whether it's me doing it or having it done to. This is especially true against the *cough* "hyper-modelled" rides like the Hurricane, Niki, La7, Spit etc.

I like to use Greebo as an example because he's done it to me more than any other in recent memory. I have come at him with an energy advantage and we've ground to a stalemate repeatedly, I can't get a shot on him and he can't saddle me up. On a couple of occasions, without saying anything we've mutually agreed to go our separate ways. Ten minutes later we both land a pelt pouch full of scalps, but not each other's. Sometime's if you're committed to fighting only your fight and the other guy is too, there's an impasse. It's not an overly common occurrence, but it happens, when it does I just salute the other guy and go about my business. If you read some anecdotal accounts especially from WWI where 1 vs 1's were not such uncommon unfortunate accidents, this happened a lot. Two planes, with dissimilar performance would reach a stalemate and eventually salute each other, go home or seek their prey elsewhere.
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Offline ink

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2008, 02:57:44 PM »
I hear ya, but I am trying to avoid judging the motive of the 109 from the OP. My take on the post is a lot of time elapsed. The 109 did initially press the attack until his energy state eroded to Co-E vs. a better turner, so give him some marks there. He then disengaged and reengaged later as the 2nd in, whether he knew it was the same Spit or was just being opportunistic against "a Spit" who he found later on a wingman we can only assume, Spits aren't exactly uncommon. As I said earlier, a pilot confident in himself and his ride would have at least continued to track the opponent during the reset phase and reengaged at his earliest possible convenience. I know, when it comes to being the 2nd in, I have no problems with it whether it's me doing it or having it done to. This is especially true against the *cough* "hyper-modelled" rides like the Hurricane, Niki, La7, Spit etc.

I like to use Greebo as an example because he's done it to me more than any other in recent memory. I have come at him with an energy advantage and we've ground to a stalemate repeatedly, I can't get a shot on him and he can't saddle me up. On a couple of occasions, without saying anything we've mutually agreed to go our separate ways. Ten minutes later we both land a pelt pouch full of scalps, but not each other's. Sometime's if you're committed to fighting only your fight and the other guy is too, there's an impasse. It's not an overly common occurrence, but it happens, when it does I just salute the other guy and go about my business. If you read some anecdotal accounts especially from WWI where 1 vs 1's were not such uncommon unfortunate accidents, this happened a lot. Two planes, with dissimilar performance would reach a stalemate and eventually salute each other, go home or seek their prey elsewhere.

VERY TRUE
i believe i heard  a story about that, maybe on dogfights, that two pilots tangled but no one won, then the German escorted the American side by side home or as far as he could any way.

any one know who, what, when, and where?

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2008, 03:01:23 PM »
Never asked for a fair fight, just a fight, don't be confused.



He pressed the attack initially until it was Co-E, then exercised his option as the faster plane to egress, that was a fight to a stalemate. You couldn't force him to turn with you and he couldn't translate his initial energy advantage into a killing blow on you.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:04:43 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2008, 03:09:18 PM »
VERY TRUE
i believe i heard  a story about that, maybe on dogfights, that two pilots tangled but no one won, then the German escorted the American side by side home or as far as he could any way.

any one know who, what, when, and where?

If I remember correctly, it was a P-47 pilot who put up a hell of a fight, against multiples I believe, and finally duked it out with this one German pilot in a real drag down fight. The P-47 got hit bad and decide to bug out ... meanwhile the German did try to take him out from the rear, but the P-47 just kept on going ... so, for whatever reason, I think the German decided that he should live that day and ceased firing and escorted him part way across the channel.

Zaz ... I have done the same with some pilots too and I have also broken off the attack on certain pilots so as not to kill them, because the fight was over and I knew and liked the guy I was fighting, or I knew the guy and he had done the same to me.
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Offline Scca

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #157 on: July 10, 2008, 03:12:27 PM »
I hear ya, but I am trying to avoid judging the motive of the 109 from the OP. My take on the post is a lot of time elapsed. The 109 did initially press the attack until his energy state eroded to Co-E vs. a better turner, so give him some marks there. He then disengaged and reengaged later as the 2nd in, whether he knew it was the same Spit or was just being opportunistic against "a Spit" who he found later on a wingman we can only assume, Spits aren't exactly uncommon. As I said earlier, a pilot confident in himself and his ride would have at least continued to track the opponent during the reset phase and reengaged at his earliest possible convenience. I know, when it comes to being the 2nd in, I have no problems with it whether it's me doing it or having it done to. This is especially true against the *cough* "hyper-modelled" rides like the Hurricane, Niki, La7, Spit etc.

I like to use Greebo as an example because he's done it to me more than any other in recent memory. I have come at him with an energy advantage and we've ground to a stalemate repeatedly, I can't get a shot on him and he can't saddle me up. On a couple of occasions, without saying anything we've mutually agreed to go our separate ways. Ten minutes later we both land a pelt pouch full of scalps, but not each other's. Sometime's if you're committed to fighting only your fight and the other guy is too, there's an impasse. It's not an overly common occurrence, but it happens, when it does I just salute the other guy and go about my business. If you read some anecdotal accounts especially from WWI where 1 vs 1's were not such uncommon unfortunate accidents, this happened a lot. Two planes, with dissimilar performance would reach a stalemate and eventually salute each other, go home or seek their prey elsewhere.
Nope, it was just me and him initially.  There were other birds in the area, but not really close.  After the first few passes, I did give chase for a few until he left icon range.  I don't remember how long I did chase him hoping he would turn and fight, time is a hard one to judge when in the heat of battle.

Zazen, we will never agree on this.  Pickers are the minority, and always will be.  If weren't, then the game would fade away.  Who wants to fly around chasing cons never actually engaging?   If everyone played that way, no one would ever get close enough to bear guns on anyone.  May as well play MS flight simulator.
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Offline toonces3

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #158 on: July 10, 2008, 03:13:31 PM »
Somebody did an Il-2 video of this fight called, "Not my time to die".  It's been posted in the film and screenshots part of this website and it is pretty good actually.
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Offline ink

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #159 on: July 10, 2008, 03:16:45 PM »
If I remember correctly, it was a P-47 pilot who put up a hell of a fight, against multiples I believe, and finally duked it out with this one German pilot in a real drag down fight. The P-47 got hit bad and decide to bug out ... meanwhile the German did try to take him out from the rear, but the P-47 just kept on going ... so, for whatever reason, I think the German decided that he should live that day and ceased firing and escorted him part way across the channel...



that sounds like the one i was thinking of.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #160 on: July 10, 2008, 03:21:07 PM »
Nope, it was just me and him initially.  There were other birds in the area, but not really close.  After the first few passes, I did give chase for a few until he left icon range.  I don't remember how long I did chase him hoping he would turn and fight, time is a hard one to judge when in the heat of battle.



If you want to be reengaged don't chase, travel perpendicular in preparation for a re-merge. It's a tall order to ask a less maneuverable plane with minimal E advantage to dump the E required to turn 180 degrees and merge with you, while you sacrafice no E. By travelling perpendicular to his flightpath you are offering to split the difference in energy cost to re-merge, making it a more tantalizing, therefore likely,  proposition.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:46:37 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #161 on: July 10, 2008, 03:40:32 PM »


Zazen, we will never agree on this.  Pickers are the minority, and always will be.  If weren't, then the game would fade away.  Who wants to fly around chasing cons never actually engaging?   If everyone played that way, no one would ever get close enough to bear guns on anyone.  May as well play MS flight simulator.

For the sake of the debate we have been speaking in terms of absolutes. In reality, there are very few "purists" as that kind of rigidity tends to not be rewarded by results in air combat. Most fly like Slappy does in his F6F example earlier adapting toward either end of the spectrum as the situation dictates. Whether you liked the outcome or not, getting BnZ'd to Co-E then later cherry-picked, IS being engaged. It's what faster planes have been doing to slower turny planes since WWI and continue to do in AH. It is the big reason slow planes that turn great quickly became obsolete and planes evolved to be faster not tighter turning.

An equalizing factor in all of this is energy. Had he mistimed his egress you could have gotten an energy advantage on him and forced him to turn with you during the initial engagement. Had you had more relative E initially, you could have forced him to turn with you from the outset. Had you not pursued him in pure trailing fashion he may have opted to reengage you sooner without the friendly bait fish. He engaged you with an energy advantage that resulted in a stalemate, then later, we're presuming consciously, reengaged you at a numerical disadvantage and was successfull in bringing you down. Obviously, he could have managed his initiative afforded by the faster ride more effectively and efficiently, no argument there. But, you could have done more to seduce him into fighting more intimately as well.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:50:46 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #162 on: July 10, 2008, 03:59:36 PM »
Quote
If I remember correctly
Not quite Slap but close.  The P47s were bounced by the 190s.  After a hard chase the Fw190 ran out of ammo.  The kraut pulled up alongside the desperately damaged but still functioning P47 and looked at the pilot hunkered down and shook his head in disbelief before peeling off.  He would have killed that P47 if he could have, he did in fact try to.

Had nothing at all to do with chivalry, those fairy tales are for dead men.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 04:04:16 PM by Yeager »
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #163 on: July 10, 2008, 04:03:42 PM »
There was the other time...
a 109 escorted a severely wounded B17...

Offline Yeager

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2008, 04:06:01 PM »
There was the other time...
a 109 escorted a severely wounded B17...
one time an american pilot actually stopped in the middle of a dog fight and urinated onto the canopy of the german plane, which immediately went into a dive and never recovered....
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