Pickers and runners please help me understand...

[moot]

Referring to what I said earlier, and how I think about this game, what would a real fighter pilot, in this case a Luftwaffe flyer in a 109 K-4, do?

Given an infinite amount of lives and no harm worse than some pixels saying "you were shot down" with an immediate trip back to his home tower?  I think you know the answer..

[Yenny]

One time I was really bored, so I took the La-7 up and hunted down all high profile pilots bnzming my base. It was sweet! but then they hope on 200 and cry at me for flying La-7, and all i did was lol back!

[moot]

2000 called and it wants its smack back.

[33Vortex]

Some people try to turnfight and die miserably trying. Why? Because they still have much to learn.

Some people try to E fight but don't know how to get the angle, speed and aim right, so they run. Why? Because they still have much to learn.

Some people get confused about other player's (pilots) behaviour, and complain about it. Why? Are they intimidated by the fact that someone got away from them, that someone had the audacity turn down a fight with them? Perhaps they themselves are part of the "still have much to learn" crowd?

Some people realize that other players (pilots) do not fully understand the nature of ACM and how things work up there. These people shake their heads at the less knowledgeable knowing that some will eventually come to understand while some others never will so they think it's best not to engage in a discussion about it. Those who will come to understand are the ones who want to understand... while the ones who never will understand are the ones with too big egos to develop a greater understanding of ACM, and possibly even other aspects of life.


It's just that, some people get it, some people don't. Beats me why some people refuse to understand it but... as far as I can tell, it's generally speaking just a matter of bad attitude and point-finger-and-laugh behaviour. Which is all quite silly if you ask me.


Go tell a real WW2 fighter pilot that he's a chicken for "running" from a fight, and you'd get a boot so far up your a** that you'd need to go to the dentist for oral surgery.

[BnZ]

Given an infinite amount of lives and no harm worse than some pixels saying "you were shot down" with an immediate trip back to his home tower?  I think you know the answer..

And absolutely no harm comes to anyone by someone else trying to fly realistically. You probably understand I'm not advocating absolute timidity here moot...however, I see no good in the opposite extreme.

Let me tell you another aspect of "flying to live". I have limped home smoking, shot up wrecks with a PW after delivering eggs. I could bail and come back with more eggs much quicker. But I am consistent in my trying to survive each and every sortie. I find it silly that so much jabo/attack is carried out under circumstances where air superiority has rendered survival almost impossible, but the very suicidal nature of the method renders defense nigh impossible. In the case of buffs/jabos, not flying realistically is the hated "bomb and bail"   method. But in fighters, trying to RTB each and every time is arch dweebery. Wierd...

You can believe me on this or not, but I don't get mad when people bug under reasonable circumstances. I sometimes find it a little silly when they DON'T

Today, farting around in the MA, I shot down five Fw-190s. Twice it was an individual coming in high while I was in an A-20 hunting GVs and trying to get me, 3 times were on Spitfire hops. All of them, after expending their E and ending up in front, made the mistake of doing something other than extending from a plane with superior maneuverabilty. I don't mind getting the kills, but at the same time, it kind of makes me shake my head. There was no need for them to "prove" anything to me by what amounts to letting me have very easy kills because their airframe absolutely cannot compete with mine in that particular corner of the envelope.
If there were no disengaging, top speed would be a useless trait, offensively and defensively. Sustained turn rate primarily and climb rate secondarily would be the end-all be-all, and the variety of planes that had anything going for them would be sharply curtailed. I've played a game that mimicked conditions similar to that, its called CFS3 online mode...spawn you at 200mph and 5K in the middle of the other tail-chasers, shoot whatever crosses in front of your sights until you yourself are inevitiably shot down. You and everyone else will be doing this in a Spit 99% of the time, because unlike AHII, Spit truly WAS a UFO in CFS, and the typical conditions were made for Spit only dominance. Maybe to some AH players this would be heaven, to me it was a mindless, unrealistic, hellish perversion of the stories of air combat I'd read since I was a boy.

[moot]

Alright, I give up.  You guys so inclined can fly like the pixels really were hooked up to your nervous system, and you had an acute phobia of so much as risking to be pixel-shot at.  It's really not my loss.

I'm not advocating absolute timidity here..however, I see no good in the opposite extreme.

Implying I advocated the latter?  I didn't. I've played all the different ways the game allows, including toolshedding - I used to close bases with Lancasters back in the days when the bombsight had no calibration... You just steered the bombsight from 30k and perfectly landed your FH salvos in a single pass... I've done the single La7 NOE picking people off on the front and rear lines, etc, etc.  I really am pointing at only one specific sort of gameplay. 

But in fighters, trying to RTB each and every time is arch dweebery. Wierd...

Whoa there.. The only thing I really denounce is players who run AS SOON as they detect the tiniest risk of their being in danger, and won't even engage you unless you're already fighting 1:1 (and that means an even-odds furball where the pilots decide the fight, not strictly one-on-one coalt co-e etc).  Legit RTBs are nothing like what I'm saying. I'm talking about the same sort of limpwristed crap as soccer players do, trying to get a edge by pretending to have been fouled to get a time-out, when the slo mo camera shows they faked it. 

it kind of makes me shake my head. There was no need for them to "prove" anything to me by what amounts to letting me have very easy kills because their airframe absolutely cannot compete with mine in that particular corner of the envelope.

Wrong.. I don't see why they had to have been trying to have any particular impression on you.. They may as well have been trying to come out on top of a hard challenge just as they had planned.  You don't win those without trying. 
As for "absolutely cannot compete".. I'm gonna brag here, but I've pulled off "absolutely impossible" stuff 152 vs top tier sticks flying n1k's and spits etc, many times.  I shake my head when some guy obviously doesn't stand a chance at coming out on top, but it's never because of the plane.  It's always because he's not doing it right.

Maybe to some AH players this would be heaven, to me it was a mindless, unrealistic, hellish perversion of the stories of air combat I'd read since I was a boy.

Now we're off topic, but running with your example:  1) Stories of Air Combat are what events are for, 2) that's what H2H was.. The best furballing setup, which incidently was a lot like what you describe, was HtHide's FFA maps.  It was 1 sector large, with 40k walls all around, and two air spawns... And 8 players furballing <15sec away under those spawns, non-stop.   Guess what I and a few others flew into those spit/zeke/hurri/n1k furballs?  It wasn't spits/zekes/hurris/n1k's, and believe it or not, we didn't run for miles anytime the opposition pointed at us, we didn't pick the furball, we went right for it and it was a lot more fun for everyone than the bore n snooze record breaking "extensions" that some players do in the MAs.  We fought all out and if we made a mistake, we paid for it and replaned.  If we earned a win for one fight out of 10,000, the other guy conceded and burned into the ground and reupped for fight #10,001.  He didn't run or flip flop epilepticaly or bail before taking a killshot.  He took his mistake in stride and tried to fight out of it.  There were some runners but they were weeded out, or lightened up and joined the fight, or got ejected by the host.  Litteraly eight or nine times out of ten, a really tardly picker would get ejected by the other players as soon as the host was back from afk.
We had more Air Combat in a few nights than most people now do in a whole tour.  In fact, H2H FFAers in those rooms were better than 80%+ of the MA sticks, as soon as the fight turned to knife fighting.  The only advantage MA sticks had was a better sense of pick and herd dynamics in a furball.

[Guppy35]

Go tell a real WW2 fighter pilot that he's a chicken for "running" from a fight, and you'd get a boot so far up your a** that you'd need to go to the dentist for oral surgery.

That's his point I believe.  We're not real WW2 fighter pilots.  We don't die and we get new planes.  Why not test yourself and your cartoon bird out and see if you can find the edge of the envelope instead of just staying where you feel 'safe'.  There is no risk in dying, but there is the potential for learning something more about how to 'fly' if you take the 'risk' in fighting.

[olskool2]

Ask yourself this, if the WW2 pilots could have flown without no risk, fully able to test their planes out to the limit an endless numbers of times (they never had as much chance to learn as much ACM as we possibly can, one mistake and you're dead is pretty steep learning curve), and had all day 30 minutes hops to practice with, would they still take the strategical route out?

[jerkins]

Guppy and moot have the right attitude here.  You can bnz all you want, and run when there is any chance of a co E enemy and I think many new players find bnz very appealing (they are sick of being killed repeatedly).  What I dont understand is how this style of playing wouldn't get old over time.  I dont play for score at all, I constantly fly in outnumbered just to see how long I can last.  I also occasionally fly D3a's in LWA's just to add some spice to the night.  I get kills and I get killed a lot, but i have a blast doing it.

If you are playing for score think about this.  You want to be on top of the board at the end of the month, or you want to be seen as one of the "good" players.  Yes you may be "good" at the "game" but this does not make a you a good cartoon fighter pilot.  The players often refered to as "good" frequently have poor scores.

[BnZ]

What I dont understand is how this style of playing wouldn't get old over time. 

Alot of the planes I grew up liking, their strengths are high top speed and dive speed, and good zoom climb. Playing them to their strengths involves those wicked bnz tactics. My callsign is BnZ for no other reason than that particular phrase came up alot when I was reading about fighter tactics, especially tactics used by the Americans. I didn't know it was the name of Satan when I signed up for this game 

I've DAed enough in Spitfires, for instace, to think I'm sort of a decent stick in them. Considering how much my gunner tends to suck, I could probably up the number of my kills by flying tnb style. But for me, it is honestly fun to slash through the red at insane speed like some kind of berserker while flying a hot-rod brick, snapping off shots, zoom up, do it again.

Heh...sometimes I like to keep upping tanks to a camped-spawn to, seeing if I can whack one or two "shooting from the hip" as quick as possible before they bag me.

Come to think of it, maybe I'm the one with a wierd idea of fun...

[Booz]

 I fly mindless circle-jerk all day cause I'm a cartoon piwot and it is just a game, I don't care about my results (i never buy the orange or green  properties in monopoly either), and just like every other circle-jerk cartoon pilot, I rock the most. If I chase you away once I should be immune. HiTech, can we have force fields so I can feed my ADHD craze without having to check my six because I think I really do care and ...oops, sorry, I'm just whining that everyone doesn't play like me.


 

[BaldEagl]

It sounds to me like the K-4 pilot either;

A.  Was a n00b or
B.  Didn't understand his plane.
 
In either case I can understand his actions.

If he was experienced and knew the K-4 and the Spit IX he could have dominated you.

[Rosscoe1]

Wow scca 15 pages... the most iv ever gotten out of a post is like... 5 

[33Vortex]

That's his point I believe.  We're not real WW2 fighter pilots.  We don't die and we get new planes.  Why not test yourself and your cartoon bird out and see if you can find the edge of the envelope instead of just staying where you feel 'safe'.  There is no risk in dying, but there is the potential for learning something more about how to 'fly' if you take the 'risk' in fighting.

Let me get this straight, was this aimed at me or or the AH community in general? I agree with what you said but if you're aiming that at me then you don't know how I fly.


Apart from that. One thing to keep in mind is how a/c performance can hinder the effective use of an a/c in certain situations and certain parts of the envelope. Some a/c are better suited for certain purposes. (of course you all know this, just pointing it out) The FW190 series is quite obviously designed as a E fighter, it does not turn well compared to most (if not all) other a/c. I'm not saying that it can't be done, because it's up to the pilot ultimately, but given equal skill of both pilots it becomes a matter of performance comparison in which case the 190 get the short stick more often than not.

My point is, if someone is "running" from your viewpoint, it's probably only because he'd rather not get shot down by you. So what? Can you blame him for that? I think not. This whole blaming game is getting old real fast, and it's been going on forever. The debate is pointless, as people will always have different opinions about it. The smart people of this community are the ones who stay out of the pointless debate.

Let me tell you that I've met plenty of "runners" in this game and I don't mind one bit at all. Why? It's part of the game because it's up to you to decide how to play it. So if someone "run" from you, only to come back when you're engaged with someone else and kill you, sorry to break it to you and it may be hard to face but it's your own bloody fault. You can view it as "weak" or "less skilled" but it won't matter, because he lived, you died. Poor SA has been the bane of many a pilot. If you're out there alone, you need eyes in your neck and there is no such thing as a one-man-airforce.

All this debate is pointless and most of it can be filed under the "whining" category.

[Yenny]

I run in my 190 if them lame spitfire keep chasin me in circle. I'll just make big arse circle and still kill stuff and still out running the spitfire! I just won't fight it so I won't reward them people that fly nubbie plane =) and it sure feels good to see him chase me in big circle and still gets nothing.