Author Topic: NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06  (Read 3132 times)

Offline Nashwan

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2001, 11:00:00 AM »
 
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What it really comes down to is that people couldn't handle the fact that a VVS fighter should be in the competition as one of the best freely available arena planes.

*GASP* you mean the Americans, Germans, and British actually had someone that could build a comparable combat aircraft in the war?
It looks like there will STILL be no unperked RAF fighter later than mid 1942 in the game, so don't whine too much about your LA7.
When I first got interested in AH over a year ago, the only British plane in it was the Spit F IX, which entered combat in early summer 42. It looked out of place against a plane set that included the P51D, F4U1C, 109G10 etc. It is afterall the worst type of Spit IX produced, only 300 or so being made before they added major improvements.
I waited for better RAF planes to be added. Along came the Spit V (early 41) and Typhoon (mid41, though we have a version that was produced from 42 on). Then we had a Seafrie. The Seafire IIC, the very worst of the entire line, slower even than the Seafire IB.
Meanwhile every other country bar Italy has at least 1 1944 fighter, most have several.
If you run through a list of the best mainstream 1944 fighters for each side they would be:
USA
P51D (got)
P38L (got)
P47D (got)
F4U1D (got)

Germany
109G10/K4 (got)
190D9 (got)

Japan
A6M5 (got)
N1k2 (got)

Russia
Yak9U (got)
La7 (possible perk)

Britain
Spit XIV (no sign)
Spit LF IX (no sign)
Tempest (perked)

Britain has the oldest plane set in the game, older even than the Italians, not noted for their late war uberplanes.

Offline Fishu

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2001, 11:10:00 AM »
Wow.. this surprised me for 190D9.
But I knew another was P51B  

Offline Tronspir

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2001, 11:19:00 AM »
Who's Ram?  

Mass

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2001, 11:35:00 AM »
Who's "Tronspir" ?  

Offline Tronspir

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2001, 11:46:00 AM »
Who's Mass? Who's Zzzzz?  

Offline Vermillion

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2001, 11:57:00 AM »
Ummm Nashwan, did you ever go test the Spit IX?

I know its suppose to be a F, but unless its changed in the past revision (and it was not listed under the "Fixes"), its Max Speed and the critical altitude, is much closer to a HF.

And if your flying the Spit IX with the .50's then you ARE flying the 1944 bird and not the 1942 bird.   (And we both know which is flown more in AH)

Oh and you forgot the Typhoon and the Lancaster in your list of British planes added since you started.

So no matter how you cut it, the general AH population is not flying a 1942 F varient.

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[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-02-2001).]

Wisk-=VF-101=-

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2001, 01:09:00 PM »
I do not quite understand why ShVAKs are so crappy in AH as compared to 6 50s and MG151s.

Even if to go only by muzzle velocity, rate of fire and projectile weight ShVAKs are better. In addition to that there were some types of amunition for soviet guns that made them more effective than competitors.

Here is the data:

(Type   Muzzle Vel.        ROF        Proj.Weight)
ShVAK(20mm) 800m/s      800rpm  96 grams
MG151(20mm) 780m/s      700rpm  90 grams
Hispano(20mm)860m/s      800rpm  130 grams

US M3(12.7mm) 800m/s    750rpm  43 grams
UB-12.7mm   860m/s      1000rpm  48 grams
MG131(13mm) 700m/s     800rpm   36 grams

US M4(37mm) 700m/s     130rpm    650 grams
MK-103(30mm) 580m/s    200rpm    330 grams
MK-108(30mm) 500m/s    600rpm    330 grams
NS-37(37mm)  900m/s    250rpm    735 grams

So, Hispano does look better, but that's the only 20mm gun that is better than ShVAK if to compare only by these three parameters.

Some of the more complicated metrics that can be used are:
weight of a one-second burst;
"quality" of a gun = (m*(v^2)*n)/(2*g*60*M)
where, m - projectile weight (kg)
       v - muzzle velocity (m/s)
       n - rate of fire (per min)
       g - gravity acceleration (9.8 m/s^2)
       M - gun's weight (kg)

Also, I heard statements that even one 20mm and 2 12.7mm have more destructive power than 6 12.7mm (these statements were based on tests and pilots' experience).

Here's an excerpt from TsAGI study (chapter assessing lend-lease aircraft):

"Soviet and foreign fighters differed significantly in the positioning and power of their armament. Central positioning of armament, typical for Soviet fighters, allowed for better concentration of fire than wing positioning, typical for US and British aircraft. And this was so even though the rate of fire on Soviet aircraft was reduced due to the synchronization needed to fire through the proppeller area. So that to increase concentration and effectiveness of fire, the british and americans were forced to increase the number of guns, which resulted both in increase of the aircraft weight and the moment of inertia relative to the nose-tail axis. Because of this the responsiveness of the aircraft to the pilot's roll control inputs was worsened. It must be noted that even though the P-51B and D (that had only machine-guns) had higher weight of a burst, their effectiveness of fire was lower than that of the La-7, Yak-3, and "Spitfire" armed with cannon."

Here's what Oleg Maddox (Il-2 game creator, long-time aerospace industry engineer) had to say about some of the ammo used in USSR:

"Also 12,7 mm rounds for UB, BK and UBT had versions with contact explosure.
Such shells(rounds) used mostly on IL-2 rear gunner UBT as well as on most Russian bombers.
Less use of such shells on fighters was in the first period of the war, but from 1943 all planes were supplied with such power rounds.

So there was each third with traccer and others with explosure...
It was much more effective than say German 13 and 15 mm MG and of course more effective than US and UK MGs (There was total replacement of weapon on the lend-lease planes. Even on aircobra there is known such replacement of 12,7 mm US MG's, but not so many replacements than on Lend lease Hurricanes, P-40s and Spits)
Lend lease bombers also had replacement of weapon. Say such as A-20 even had Russian design turret as much more effective than original.

So, if someone think that one high speed 20 mm cannon and one 12,7 mm MG on Russian fighters was not enough, should read Hartmann's description with comparison - One gun is more effective then 6 MGs on US fighters. (And of course is big advantage when cannons are nose mounted).

The old time docs comparison with shot-weight per sec isn't so correct and can be used only as a basic comparison in additional to type and explosure effect of shells/rounds."



[This message has been edited by Wisk-=VF-101=- (edited 03-02-2001).]

Offline Nashwan

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2001, 01:49:00 PM »
Verm I did mention the Typhoon.
The Spit in AH is an F IX. It climbs like an F IX (actually slightly worse than an F IX should climb, and miles off an LF or HF IX.
Critical alt may be wrong, I don't know, but that only means it performs too well at 20000ft+, where very little action takes place anyway. An LF IX would be far better for the sort of fights in AH, as well as being more historicaly representitive.
The gun package on the Spit IX is an anomally, the E wing was afaik never fitted to the F IX, all production of that model had stopped long before the E wing was introduced.
In other words we have a 1944 gun package attached to a basic 1942 Spit. It has none of the performance benifits of the later Spit IXs.

Offline Karnak

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
Nashwan,
Your list of the best 1944 Japanese fighters should read as follows:

Japan
Ki84 (no sign)
N1K2 (got)

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Offline Wilbus

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2001, 06:28:00 PM »
YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSS!!!! DORA NINE!!! WOHOWWWW!!!! YES THANK YOU EVERYBODY ON HTC!!! THANK YOU!!!!! WHOYA! YES!!! THERE IS A GOD AND HE GAVE ME THE DORA!!! YES YES YES!!!!

 



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Offline juzz

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2001, 04:47:00 AM »
 
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Have you ever looked at the climbrate of either the Typhoon (up to 10k) or the G10? Both can already climb as well, actually much better, than the La7.

The G-10 yes(and it should certainly be perked if the La-7 is, as should the D-9 and P-51D), but:

Whaaaaaaa? Typhoon climbing like the La-7?!

UTTER roadkill!!!  

From 0 to 10k the Typhoon's climbrate drops from a mighty 3400fpm to a massive 2700fpm, with WEP.

Compare that to the La-7: at s/l well over 4700fpm, dropping to 3500fpm at 10k.

Hmmm...

As for Spits: the Spitfire F.IX does have some engine/performance related FM issues(hence no chart on the HTC site), but it's top speed and critical altitudes(15k and 28k) are correct for the Merlin 61 powered F.IX. The E wing, 300 litre??? drop tank and rockets are wrong wrong wrong for the F.IX though.  

sky_bax

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2001, 05:55:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Basically, the B outperforms the D in every way, but not by much.
J_A_B

Actually, that isn`t true.

D`s different wings offering a much better high speed turn ability.

The D out rolls the B.

Flying the Mustang fast, as it should be flown, the D`s better turn & roll are nice to have.

But the B`s slight edge in speed at high alt, better acceleration, and climb are nice too.

B & D, Pros & Cons, he he, love em both.  


Offline Lephturn

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NEWS FLASH !! P-51B & Fw190D9 in 1.06
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2001, 10:56:00 AM »
Pyro said:
 
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If we got to working on P-47s this version, we would have done a razorback D as well.

Oh please let it be so for next version!  A 47 Razorback... C or D, maybe an M or N thrown in there.  Hmmm, time to send HTC some scotch I think.  


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