please make death more costly HTC :)

[Phantom121]

Your screen is not blank just because you can't launch.

I am not sure I understand the problem. If you are in a fight and need to RTB for ammo, fuel, damage, whatever, it is going to take 4 or 5 minutes to fly back and land, then 4 or 5 minutes to return to the fight. You surely are not able to land and refuel at a base under heavy attack.  If you get killed and pick another base to launch from, it will take you several minutes to return to the fight. 60 seconds of planning prior might make you a more "valuable" asset to your teammates.  The only time a short delay is going to make significant change is the immediate respawning at a base being vulched.  Hell, the eternity you have to wait while the enjine starts and before the plane will roll (while every vulcher in the area is manuevering to kill you) seems worse than a short wait.  I would rather a little longer wait in the tower and shorter startup time on the runway.  Tho, I guess just adding a few seconds to startup time would be effective in deterring guys from trying to respawn at a vulched base.  But, I don't think that was the point of the thread.  

The question was about there being a little more penalty for dieing.  Having to use another plane or start from another base are both much worse than a short wait. If not 1 minute maybe 30 second (you have to wail that long on the rearm pad).

[hitech]

Drill Instructor said "The Marine Corps does not want you to die for your country. We want you to make the enemy die for his country!"

Phantom this statement and mine are not opposed to eachother, Yours states the primary goal is to make the enemy die and that ,in the end, is my point If you put to much emphisis on living, i.e. make it the primary goal, what happens is lots of poeple will not engage unless they have a very clear advantage, and if there is a chance of dieing they will run. This does not make for a fun game.

Wanting to live has a roll, but if there is to much cost in dieing, it does not make for fun.

HiTech

[hazed-]

as i said i was only throwing in ideas without thinking them out too much and as rip hitech mav and others have pointed out the delay thing WOULD be a pile of crock  

what i was trying to do was get a few of us to come up with some ideas on how to make this game rewarding for those that manage to stay alive.

This is NOT because i stay alive a lot! check my K/D ratio its pretty lame.
BUT I do feel that those that do stay alive for sortie after sortie SHOULD GAIN to the extent that a player who is trying to stay alive has the incentive to try to think tactically e.g. before engagement think about where you are going to egress etc
The way people bite my head off  (  ) for just trying to throw ideas in the pot is a little rough.
Mav we've had our run ins on the BB but i must admit you are nothing if not consistant in your views and i can plainly see you prefer the faster paced furball type game.Whether this is due to constraints on your time online i dont know but i appreciate you would rather not see introductions that limit your choice of action on the limited time you can spend online.Its not my place to dictate what i think you should do on AH but i do ask that you appreciate i spend a lot of time on AH and would like certain bonuses for unusually good sorties etc.
Doesnt anybody remember the basis of games? the carrot at the end of the stick? thats what makes the donkey move  
As AH is now I dont really need to stay alive in a non perked plane.Wheres the incentive to play the more tactical or strategic level?
Well lets work out a compromise? how about we reward those that stay alive and have a low death count with extra choices? how about 5 sorties without death in a row wins a prize of some kind? choice of a special loadout or use of a different plane or just big perk bonus?(bit boring i know but hell im not a games designer! I just want goals to accomplish)

Goal and reward is the basis of games.
money, prizes, bonuses for a good job well done.

 


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Hazed
9./JG54

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-16-2001).]

[BlauK]

The problem seems to be trying to please everyone, thus not really pleasing anyone   ... kinda like an average Hollywood movie. Many recent boxed sims have been ruined with similar marketing demands.

It is hard to define what is FUN. For some surviving a fight and escaping home with just one kill or one assist and then rearming and heading back to fight is fun. For others it is necessary to get at least one kill every sortie regardless of one's own life and to crash the plane after out of ammo to get faster back to the fight.

These two opposite ways of having FUN in a WW2 flight sim actually spoil the fun for both types if they happen to join the same fight.

Perks are also a complex thing. Perks are no reward for many pilots because they just dont want to fly the perk planes. Also the better guys earn more perks which then allow them to fly better planes more often... that is unbalancing the game IMO.

Just to reconsider my earlier point proposal, leave the perks out of it. Let them all have their perks. Those pilots who are concerned of their K/D should have their fun though. Make it show in the scores and punish for deaths. Furball/arcade guys dont care of their lives, so obviously they dont care of their scores either. It makes no difference to them if they dont get points when dieing. (I suppose their kills even in death would have to be counted though)

The absolutely best solution IMO would be to have two separate arenas!!! Furball Arena and Historical Arena.

I would rather play a game with people who play with similar rules. Now we have people playing chess and checkers in the same game.


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BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34

[straffo]

I'm sure the player paying Internet acces by the minute would be pleased to send you their bill  

[BlauK]

 

Originally posted by hitech:
If you put to much emphisis on living, i.e. make it the primary goal, what happens is lots of poeple will not engage unless they have a very clear advantage, and if there is a chance of dieing they will run. This does not make for a fun game.
HiTech

Uhh.. ohhh... So are you basically saying that people should forget about what fighter pilots were taught about advantage and disengaging when they play AH???

I have to confess that I never engage if I am in a disadvantage, unless the situation is desperate. If I get outnumbered I try to work my way towards friendly planes. Situations and advantages change rapidly and unexpectedly in flight combat though. IMO that is the challenge and fun in it. So am I not fun for the game then?

Should I understand the above statement so that AH is meant to be more a "fun game" than a "WW2 flight sim" ??




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BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34

[AG Sachsenberg]

Jesus people its a game.  If I die so be it.  I get a new plane and take off and do the same thing I was just doing.  Maybe they should introduce electroshock Joysticks everytime you die in a plane you get shocked to toejam for 2 minutes.  Then if you can still use that side of your body you may up in a new plane.  

Please do not distort real life actions with a game.  Oh and Hitech I owned your butt in that Spittie last night    Don't mess with my A5 when I get a hot streak going.  Have to say this was fun as hell, those were some good furballs downlow.  Watching you guys plink away at me with 30 cals "can we say sounded like pinball machine on my end", and have my squad m8 come up and wax both of ya from the target fixation.  

<S>

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-16-2001).]

[hitech]

Blauk: Please don't miss understand me. You nicly left out this part.

Wanting to live has a roll, but if there is to much cost in dieing, it does not make for fun.

Take a carfull look at our scoring system for fighters.

1. K/d
   This catagory premotes living.

2. K/s
  This catagory promtes both wanting to live and wanting to get kills. When you factor in the rearm pads and victory message, it leans toward the wanting to live V getting kills.

3. K/time
  This one does not promote living at all.

4. Hit %
 Not much one way or the other.

5. Points.
 Waited heavly toward wanting to live. It takes 4 times as many kills if you die v if you land.

The perk system is also layed out both ways.
You get extra points for landing.

If flying a Perk plane living is everything.

Blauk, your free to fly as you wish.
The score system is set up so that multiple flying styles are rewarded. It's what allows you to find a fight. But always keep in mind no one flying style is better or worse then the other by it's self, If you have no death penalty, the reward feeling for a kill go's down. To much death penalty and its hard to get someone to engage.

Many years ago AW tried a one life to live arena. Althow the concept sounds great,(man just think of the tension and realism, just like the real war) it became very aparent after a few days what was wrong with this concept.

In real life the mission out ways your risk of dieing,it's what forces people to engage, just like in senarios.

In the arena you have a choice to not engage any time you wish.
Making death to much of a penalty tips the scales to far in the direction of not wanting to engage.

HiTech

[Phantom121]

HiTech:

I really appreciate your reply.  I am not a realism fanatic.  I think the game is fun.  I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the game.  I was merely agreeing with Hazed that there could be some merits to a slight increase in the death penalty.  If everyone starts flying completely "real" would we get maybe 1 or 2 kills a month. That is certainly not going to be fun.  I agree that several of the scoring items are weighted to living.  I was mostly saying that it takes a somewhat long time to enter a fight from a nearby base and forcing you to re up from farther away would be really bad.  Forcing choice of a different plane is even worse.  A "short" time penalty (say equal to the rearm penalty) seems to me to be a reasonable compromise, but obviously that really bothers some.  Heck, as I said I am on the low end of living and prefer to re up as soon as possible. I often auger rather than fly back, rearm-refuel, and then return to fight. I hate the "long" delay for engine startup waiting for the vulchers to kill me.  It is just that in the heat of the battle I often make poor decisions as to how I might best be of use to my country.  A short delay might help.  I think I will try it personally for the rest of the tour and see if I have more fun if I better plan my actions.  Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion.

Diferent subject: K/D

Any chance to get D = "you were killed" and not you bailed.  I mean in real life my pilots bailed and returned to fight.  Some were shot down several times.  While bailing affects perks it does not help kill per death.  Maybe that would encourage some of us to try to live.

[hitech]

Phatom: Pros and cons of that.

Pros.
People will bail quiker when there plane is not flyable. This will taper the i'll just ride my plane down hopeing the other guy dies first, and thus not letting him get the kill.

Con:
1. People will tend to bail before getting attacked since it dosn't cost them a death.

2. Death would not reflect how many times you were shot down.


Any others?

HiTech

[Karnak]

Phantom121,

I am one of the guys who attacked the time out after dying.  In the time I have been playing AH I have intentionally augured a total of 1 time.  I augured an A6M5b after deacking a Vehicle Field that I was solo capturing during off-peak hours.

I always try to return to base.  To me it is a vastly more satisfying experience if I land and turn the engine off at a friendly field, even scraping a pulverized kite along the runway is enjoyable because it means I brought her home despite the best efforts of my opponents.

However I am not that good and I land far fewer flights than I would like.  In addition some of my most enjoyable flights have been ones in which I dove into suicidal odds in an attempt to make a difference, sacrificing myself for the cause.  The fact that I won't get to land is my penalty for doing that, I don't need a simulation of the fact that in real life I'd be finding out if there's an afterlife or not.

I fly to live, but I also fly to kill.  I don't need any artificial "enhancements" to tell me how to fly.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-16-2001).]

[Nexus]

Some how this thread got hijacked into a Death/Life issue.

How to penalize the suicide bombers was the original intent.

Perhaps limiting a person to 7 fighters, 7 bombers, 7 boats, and 7 GVs per 2 hour period would solve the carelessly reckless.

But then again - that might just spoil the fun.

After all this is just a game.

Nexus

[BlauK]

HiTech wrote:
It takes 4 times as many kills if you die v if you land.

Thanks for that info HT, and for your comments. Truly appreciated. This has not been apparent to many of us before I think.

The question is how much to penalize for death. I dont think that people would stop engaging if the penalty was higher though. People are playing AH to engage in fights, not only to fly around safely. The question is about how much to risk, when to risk and how to risk. One can score goals (kills) in a ball game and still lose (die) the game and come home with 0 points.

HiTech wrote:
Pros.
People will bail quiker when there plane is not flyable. This will taper the i'll just ride my plane down hopeing the other guy dies
first, and thus not letting him get the kill.


I think the kill should be awarded to the guy who deserved it even though he bailed out. Why does it have to depend on if he is still inside his plane or not? Same thing if he dies first. Why is it a common thing for closest pilots to get to steal the kill. Certainly many WW2 pilots were credited with a kill even though they died on the same sortie.


Con:
1. People will tend to bail before getting attacked since it dosn't cost them a death.

2. Death would not reflect how many times you were shot down.

I think it would be good to separate losses of planes and losses of lives.

The enemy gets a kill even though the pilot bails out and survives. IMO bailing out has to cost you compared to landing, but dieing has to cost more that surviving by bailing out! If all planes had at least a small perk value, bailing out for nothing would be penalized by losing the perks for that plane. Kill scores could be tied strictly to pilot lives and perks strictly to plane costs.

Could the stats be separated for losing one's life and for just losing the plane??

Finally,
I dont believe in time penalties or plane amount limits with pilot deaths. There are some people who pay their bills and want to play quake with planes.... let them have their fun. Just dont praise it by awarding points for it. Suicide-taxi-bombers and intentional suicide crashes to get faster back in air in a new plane are from some other genre than WW2 flight sim.

AG,
Certainly this is a game... Exaggerations like electric shocks and 1-life games (burn the cd after death) etc. are just stupid provocations. Every game is based on some concept where it draws its rules and encouraged actions. many things are adjusted to entertaining level though. If the concept is WW2 flight combat, why should the death not be an issue?

If you die, no points!! Learn to stay alive. Losing a plane is never as bad as losing a pilot.


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BlauKreuz
Lentolaivue 34

[kfsone]

Points:

1. My mention of the rear-base concept (from way back in WarBirds) wasn't a suggestion, it was highlighting how bad some of these punishment ideas are.

2. Everyone plays differently and imposing punishments rapidly eliminates many styles of play; for example, if you restrict plane types per death, players who enjoy flying a single craft exclusively are cut out of the loop.

3. This is a game, we're here to fly and have fun. If you build "punishment" into the game, the little technical hiccups that happen, lag, net deaths, etc, all become beyond frustrating because the game now spanks you for being on the receiving end of them.

4. Punishing players for death MASSIVELY hurts newbies, massively yanks up the learning curve, and massively discourages players from solo-engagements, and massively ENCOURAGES gang-bangs for safety.

Reward engagement and survival.

For most of us, losing our steed is punishment enough in itself - you only need to see the angst that flares up on ch 1.

K

[hazed-]

 

Originally posted by BlauK:
HiTech wrote:
It takes 4 times as many kills if you die v if you land.

Thanks for that info HT, and for your comments. Truly appreciated. This has not been apparent to many of us before I think.

yes blauk i didnt realise the score was 4 times as high for landing either   in fact i still cant work out quite how the scoring thing works   lol

Hitech thanks for the replies.I can see now you are trying to do what im ranting on about   only i couldnt really tell it makes such a difference to land safe as i dont check my perks or score after every mission only those that i think 'wow i did well...wonder how mwny perks i got ..'
score i only check after a few days of flying so its hard to tell what scored what.
Maybe after a succesfull landing we could get a breif message with the sortie score?
If score is the main object of me playing it would be nice if on a death or a landing it said 'you survived with a score of xxx' or 'you have died and your score is zilch'(hehe).

again thanks all for some interesting reading.

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Hazed
9./JG54