Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please

[Bosco123]

Alright
Calsign:Bosc0123
BBS Handle: Bosco123
General Location/Times avalible: Eastern Time mostly 7 to 10PM
Email: Bosco123@embarqmail.com
Preferred contact meathod: PM, BB or Email


Online Flight Sim Experience: 1 year of AH
Prefferd Aircraft: All except KI's
General Style: BnZ, TnB
Can Teach Topics: BnZ 1v1, E fighting
Skill Level: Beginner to Advanced
Preferred Teaching Meathod: DA or TA dosn't matter to me

[2bighorn]

OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.

If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.

Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
 

[A8TOOL]

Vudak, while I applaud your effort I'm not so sure this is actually a good idea.  Blah Blah Blah...

Always a nay sayer.
Took less than an hour for you to find this thread and proceeded to take the opposite side. If the 2nd, 3rd or 4th post could only have been a negative one. You would've been all for it then right..... That is how you work isn't it?


I think it's a great idea and believe a few will stick with their pledge and commit for a bit.

[humble]

OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.

If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.

Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
 

This is exactly the issue at the heart of the matter. While you have a few people who have understated or attempted to qualify their capabilities very carefully you have others who are probably grossly overestimating their place in the universe. By no means does that mean they are not "good sticks" or potentially qualified to teach certain aspects of ACM etc...but unless your good enough to give some pointers to folks like Greebo, bluekitty, Drex, TC, Delirium and a host of others the word "advanced" shouldnt be in your vocabulary. Even if someone is in fact capable of advanced ACM that doesnt mean they can actually teach it consistantly or correctly.

There are alot of people out there giving golf lessons, not all of them are class A PGA pro's, and not all class A pro's are equally capable. For most people that wont matter...but there are an awful lot of "good pro's" out there that arent Hank Haney, Butch Harmon, Chuck Hogan etc...

There are an awful lot of good sticks, probably hundreds of really good sticks and a couple hundred gifted pilots....then you have a very select few that would earn the "advanced" designation IMO...

[Banshee7]

OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.

If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.

Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
 

That's why i said beginner to intermediate

[Vudak]

You know, I agree 100% with what you're saying Humble, but I have to be an optimist and believe that this is in LARGE part my fault.

I originally suggested four main categories: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert.

The guys you listed are all well past advanced in my book.

[humble]

Always a nay sayer.
Took less than an hour for you to find this thread and proceeded to take the opposite side. If the 2nd, 3rd or 4th post could only have been a negative one. You would've been all for it then right..... That is how you work isn't it?


I think it's a great idea and believe a few will stick with their pledge and commit for a bit.

It's a great idea in a sense, and its a bad idea in another. I count Vudak as a squaddie and a friend and hes a very good stick to boot. Guys like him who are constantly seeking to improve and have a very realistic outlook on both their skill level and the ability to communicate ideas and concepts and absorb and integrate new information are always valuable teaching others. Vudak remends me alot of another hog driver I used to wing with a bit MTNMAN.

Personally I think has he continues to evolve he'd be a fine member of the formal training corps. The flip side is you can have alot of people who are interested in being a trainer based on a sense of self worth. Thats why historically those who actively seek are denied and those who simply grow, learn and contribute are asked...its a roll that will seek you out in time. All of the positive things that Vudak takes for granted and views as universal really arent. They are some of the hardest attributes to find and essential for a good trainer in any disipline of life.

So this is a great idea with a serious potential draw back, which is the reality that the self nomination process creates a difficulty since many who feel qualified either arent at all or have a poor understanding of their actual limitations. So either the formal corp of trainers has to be totally hands off or has to step in and ruffle feathers. The current system allows alot of careful deliberation and selectivity without the need to axtively say NO. Those who are considered and found wanting are simply never contacted....

I've seen this issue from the inside and understand Murders (and TC's) position very clearly. While there is potential merit, the potential harm is actually greater in some ways. It's easier to teach then to unteach. This is from 1st hand experience both as a trainer and as a student of the game. Any semi formal body of partially "sanctioned" auxillary trainers can potentiall create more problems then it solves.

All that being said I'm actually for it since we have a large group of "wanna be's" in the TA all the time, some like Bat, Lengro & Vudak {I just left it with some squaddies but there are many others} are very good and quite helpful. Others couldnt poor piss out of a boot if you get my drift. I went in by chance once looking for Bat a few months ago and was tooling around in an A-20. I spent 30 minutes or so being "taught" by a guy who viewed himself as a "trainer" yet could never even gain my 3-9 line while giving me all kinds of pointers...not even realizing I probably passed up 200 shots and broke off and reset the fight 2 dozen times.

If in fact it's possible and can somehow be done I think some sort of "good housekeeping" seal of approval would be great.

[humble]

You know, I agree 100% with what you're saying Humble, but I have to be an optimist and believe that this is in LARGE part my fault.

I originally suggested four main categories: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert.

The guys you listed are all well past advanced in my book.

I was typing the longer response while you replied.

[Yossarian]

So this is a great idea with a serious potential draw back, which is the reality that the self nomination process creates a difficulty since many who feel qualified either arent at all or have a poor understanding of their actual limitations. So either the formal corp of trainers has to be totally hands off or has to step in and ruffle feathers.

[snip]

I've seen this issue from the inside and understand Murders (and TC's) position very clearly. While there is potential merit, the potential harm is actually greater in some ways. It's easier to teach then to unteach. This is from 1st hand experience both as a trainer and as a student of the game. Any semi formal body of partially "sanctioned" auxillary trainers can potentiall create more problems then it solves.

All that being said I'm actually for it since we have a large group of "wanna be's" in the TA all the time, some like Bat, Lengro & Vudak {I just left it with some squaddies but there are many others} are very good and quite helpful. Others couldnt poor piss out of a boot if you get my drift. I went in by chance once looking for Bat a few months ago and was tooling around in an A-20. I spent 30 minutes or so being "taught" by a guy who viewed himself as a "trainer" yet could never even gain my 3-9 line while giving me all kinds of pointers...not even realizing I probably passed up 200 shots and broke off and reset the fight 2 dozen times.

If in fact it's possible and can somehow be done I think some sort of "good housekeeping" seal of approval would be great.

I think that a check-out ride by an official trainer in each area that an incumbent (please tell me if that's the wrong word) unofficial trainer has said they feel qualified to teach in would solve the overwhelming majority of potential problems with this proposal.  Whilst there would undoubtedly be some ruffled feathers, I'd say that if an applicant is offended by being turned down, that just goes to show they wouldn't be 'qualified' to teach in that area.

Whilst I agree that an unqualified unofficial trainer can do a lot of harm, if a vetting process were introduced, I feel that unofficial trainers could do huge amounts of good work for all players.  In addition to this, assuming that an unofficial trainer means well and is accepted (if this proposal goes ahead), a short list of guidelines sent to that unofficial trainer about the areas they will teach (written by an actual trainer) would be extremely helpful and eliminate many potential errors.

Personally, I know that I can land successfully almost 100% of the time.  Granted, I may not always come down in one piece, but I almost invariably hit the tarmac and get a successful landing (as in tonight I lost engine oil and half a wing of a Hellcat, had an A-20 and a Ki-61 closing in, and was going to overshoot the carrier, however I still dropped enough speed fast enough to land my kills, even though I ripped off the rest of my wings).  The reason why I think I should be an unofficial trainer is because I see a lot of new players asking for help with all sorts of things, and I am confident that I know how to land, take-off, and know enough of the game mechanics to be extremely helpful to a confused new player.  Whilst other people undoubtedly know far more about these areas than I, I think I still know enough to provide a solid grounding to any new player, which would then help more advanced players to be of even greater use to that person.

<S>

Yossarian

[Masherbrum]

I volunteered to be a Trainer and was told "thanks for calling".   I now only help those who ask for it. 

[Bosco123]

OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.

If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.

Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
 

My whole fighting style is based on E fighting, I know it very well and know how to use it. I can also get down and dirty with a hard TnB also.

[Vudak]

Having read the latest replies, I think my original idea could have used several revisions and a few more nights' sleep.  I say this because I'm getting the feeling that some are looking at this as though I was implying we should start a "supplemental" or "unofficial" trainer "program..."  Obviously, one can just look at the thread's title, and see that I messed up right there.

I used the phrase, "Unofficial Trainer" on the merit of it being a short way to say "Hey you guys that regularly help out people instead of telling them to wander off - read this please!" That was a big mistake.

Steve did nail it though, the whole idea is just to have a way that those of us who do help out unofficially could know who each other are, for the purposes of being able to refer guys to others that can help them out...

For example, I was in the 475th for about a year.  I've winged with some excellent P-38 sticks, and if someone asked me who was a good one, I could go on and on and on.  But if someone asked me, "Well who will teach me it?" ...  My list is all of a sudden very short.  Before this thread, I did not know that Del was willing to do it.  Now I do, and can pass on that knowledge without feeling as though I'm imposing something on him.

I did think about the possibility that some people would overestimate or misinterpret their own abilities, but at the same time, I was looking at this as a "Referral Service..."  I'm not going to ever refer a guy to a lawyer based on that lawyer's ad...  I'm going to refer a guy to a lawyer based on what I've personally seen that lawyer do.  I kind of figured the same would apply here.

---

As far as there actually being an "official" unofficial trainer role...  Well, that kind of defeats the whole spirit of this thing in my eyes, and personally, I know I wouldn't want to be put in that sort of role, for various reasons.  The more I think about it, the less I like the idea in general.  Just look at what a few kills does to channel 200...  A possible "hire" for *any* official role in HTC, even as just something like a student teacher, should always, always, always be a "We'll call you" situation.

The whole idea is to give everyone a list of people they can call.  The trainers can, if they want, call in a guy to help demonstrate something.  The guys slugging it away helping newbies in the DA can refer them to people who they personally know could help them in things they themselves can't do.  The newbies could at least know which people are going to say, "Sure, I have a minute," and not just "RTFM" (or worse).

Basically, it's just the thought of organizing what is already going on - and I still think that's a prudent idea.  Not to be a tinfoil hat guy, but when I said that I think Combat Tour will be a grand success, I meant financially for HTC.  In terms of average player skill and helper/helpee ratio, it will be a complete and total disaster.  You think summer's bad?  Just wait

[Banshee7]

I volunteered to be a Trainer and was told "thanks for calling".   I now only help those who ask for it. 

When the TA has 20+ people in there i ALWAYS go there to give the trainers a hand.  I might not be much help but theres someone in there that i can always help.

[BaldEagl]

Always a nay sayer.
Took less than an hour for you to find this thread and proceeded to take the opposite side. If the 2nd, 3rd or 4th post could only have been a negative one. You would've been all for it then right..... That is how you work isn't it?

I don't "work" any way but to offer my unbiased opinion.  Sometimes it agrees, sometimes it disagrees and I personally don't care whether YOU agree with it or not.  It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

I did start by saying I applauded the effort.  On the surface it's a good idea and I was tempted to add my name but as I thought about that I realized that deeper in there were inevitable issues.

Nothing against you Bosco, you know I like you, but I think you've grossly overestimated your abilities.  To think you have something to offer to the likes of Widewing, FX, Steve, SHawk and a host of others in E fighting after only one year of play doesn't seem likely.  Very few achieve that level that quickly and this simply points out one of my original reservations.

As to a network of people to refer people to we all know who the good sticks are in their respective rides.  You want to learn about F4U's see Saxman, Ki-61's see Karaya, F6F's/FM2's see SlapShot, Yaks see Gixer, A-20's see Humble.  You want game basics ask Lusche or The Fugitive.  The list goes on and on.  That doesn't mean their willing to take the time to teach you but there's no harm in asking.  The list of "unofficial trainers" can be culled from this very forum in very short order.

I really don't see a problem with things the way they've worked in the past; a player wants to work on something, posts here and gets a few responses from people available at the same times.  Sure, many of the same issues still exist but at least there's no facade that they are meeting with a trainer, official or not.

[Delirium]

if a vetting process were introduced, I feel that unofficial trainers could do huge amounts of good work for all players. 

If that is to be the case, I'd like to remove my name from the list. Frankly, if I have to go through that many hoops to take on a single student at a time, I might as well just apply for regular trainer status instead. The reason I'm not interested in regular trainer status is the fact they have to float from student to student and you don't see the progression of the student (ie improvement) on a daily basis. The most rewarding thing is seeing someone's confidence build and telling you, "That move you showed me yesterday really helped me in the MA!" If someone doesn't think I'm qualified to help them learn the P38, then by all means, don't ask me.

I get a lot of PMs asking for help with the P38, if someone is serious about learning it and has flown it for some time, generally I'll help them. Among the reasons I have declined is; inability to listen, being a channel 200 rant monkey, and I don't feel qualified to teach mouse flyers.