Author Topic: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please  (Read 17725 times)

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #225 on: July 31, 2008, 01:14:11 AM »
Honestly, I believe that unloading before shooting was done to lessen the risk of the guns jamming due to the flexing of the ammunition pathing during high G loads.

I, of course, could be wrong.  But if I'm not, then unloading isn't really important in AH2, since gun jams aren't modeled.  That said, I expect that you have taught yourself to get a better angle and consequently you get a longer burst on target.

The effect of unloading may improve your gunnery, but perhaps not for the reasons you may think.

Yea , I read that too. One of the Earlier Spit versions had a real problem with that. I think sometimes to fix it they even had to do a negative G push as it had to be unstuck.
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Offline DoNKeY

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #226 on: July 31, 2008, 02:08:15 AM »
I disagree on few points (marked in red)

Quote from: Zazen13 on Yesterday at 12:32:32 PM
There is no SA required.
SA is required. Very much so. Albeit not all SA elements are required in a duel

There is no careful balancing of the maximization of the strengths of one aircraft vs. the weaknesses of another.
You can duel in diff aircraft. Many do

There is very little consideration for E management.
It is exactly opposite.

There is no need for cooperative tactics and communication.
True only in 1vs1 duel

There is no consideration required for ammunition conservation making good aim relatively unimportant as you can spray to your heart's content and hope for lucky hits.
Spraying will kill you quickly in a well matched duel. Good aim is essential

There is no consideration required to the adjustment of your flying to compensate for the state of your fuel-load.
True

There is no consideration for the exploitation of an initial energy advantage or negating an intial energy disadvantage.
Not as often as in MA, but it does happen in a duel



Stole the words right out of my mouth...


I disagree with you. The less relative E you have the more important angles become as your options to use E to maneuver radically in order to create angles decrease progressively to the point where E can't be converted to angles at all and you are now stallfighting. The lower your E state the less you have to lose, relatively speaking, by sacraficing Energy for an angle even if it means eroding your E state further toward a pure stallfight where there is no excess energy to manage at all.

Quite the opposite.  Infact, the less E you have, the more important it becomes to manage what you have left in order to covert that into "angles," position, and the kill shot.  Think of it this way, without managing your E carefully, you won't have enough power to pull over the top on a rolling scissors and you'll end up stalled or floating right into your opponents gun sights.  Or, you may not be able to cut inside your opponents turn, or make him (or her) overshoot.  As you can see, the possibilities are almost endless...

Also, see below.

I agree with both points...  Just to add a few thoughts...

Point #1 - Energy still matters very much so in an angles fight, as certain angles simply cannot be obtained with it, or without it.  It's just that it's not so apparent as a typical MA fight where one party often starts with a noticeable advantage.

Successfully judging a person's energy state pre-merge is a *huge* part of dueling.  Whereas you might see people just using a few basic moves, Zazen, you can bet your butt they're deliberately coming in at different speeds for the same maneuver.  A good dueler needs to mix it up and be unpredictable...  If they can't do that, they'll be beat the same way over and over again.

Energy goes both ways...  And dispite popular thought, having a surplus is not *always* a good thing, by any means.  It is at times, sure.




You might want to film your next few duels and let someone else watch them, I strongly suspect you are doing something fundamentally wrong...

 :rofl :rofl  If he's doing something wrong, the rest of us might as well not even try.


donkey
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #227 on: July 31, 2008, 04:09:09 AM »
Interesting, if anything I tend to use lag pursuit and pull a bit heavier on the shot so if he's looking in his rear view he thinks he's safe until it's too late...The only time I like lead pursuit is if I'm trying to work off his E advantage, so I pull a lead angle he has to at least match, preferably beat or give me a shot. This means I either get a shot or he has to blow E to pull more G's or change the vector of his turn to "catchup" or change the angle to out-of-plane which is only a temporary cure.



Yea, I do the same thing, more or less.  I'll switch between different pursuit modes depending on my needs during a fight, but lag is probably my most common.  I just pull lead for the shot. 
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #228 on: July 31, 2008, 04:13:18 AM »
Honestly, I believe that unloading before shooting was done to lessen the risk of the guns jamming due to the flexing of the ammunition pathing during high G loads.

I, of course, could be wrong.  But if I'm not, then unloading isn't really important in AH2, since gun jams aren't modeled.  That said, I expect that you have taught yourself to get a better angle and consequently you get a longer burst on target.

The effect of unloading may improve your gunnery, but perhaps not for the reasons you may think.

That could be...  Like I said, I don't really remember- it's been a long time since I gave much thought to it. 

I generally don't need a very long burst on target though, unless it's on a bomber.  My bursts are short 1/4 - 1/2 second spurts.  And on buffs I'm more likely to fire while pulling a bit, since I'm looking at a "fire-hose" scenario, where I'm trying to land all my hits from a 1-2 second burst.
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #229 on: July 31, 2008, 07:31:18 AM »


Quite the opposite.  Infact, the less E you have, the more important it becomes to manage what you have left in order to covert that into "angles," position, and the kill shot.  Think of it this way, without managing your E carefully, you won't have enough power to pull over the top on a rolling scissors and you'll end up stalled or floating right into your opponents gun sights.  Or, you may not be able to cut inside your opponents turn, or make him (or her) overshoot.  As you can see, the possibilities are almost endless...


I totally get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree with you. But, that is not what I meant really. What I mean is the less relative E you have compared to your opponent, the more you are angles fighting, the more you angles fight, the more the fight will devolve into stallfighting eventually, it's the nature of air combat. During this process as relative E states erode, your options (and his) to use E to create angles diminish gradually to the point where it's almost non-existant. That is not to say you don't have to think about E management at all by any means, you will just have fewer and fewer ways available to have effective E management make a substantial impact on the angle or your position relative to the foe, especially since you started out Co-E/Co-Alt and can each theoretically neutralize or counter any move by virtue of E/Option parity..

It is to say that E management becomes much less a process unto itself, for its own sake, to create angles and more simply a secondary consideration while attempting to get an advantageous angle and keep it relative to your opponent. This is especially true the closer the fight gets toward a stallfight. There is a critical point of no return where the angle you have right before you both become E bankrupt and begin stallfighting that your relative angular position will be almost "cast in stone". From that point forward neither of you will have the relative E to change it much, if it all. This is the "riding the edge" phase. Generally, whoever rides the edge of the stall best will be able to change the angle enough for a shot and win, this involves almost no E management whatsoever as you don't have any E to manage. So, from the beginning to that point, E management, as a means to its own end, becomes less and less important than the angles and your position relative the your opponent in a progressive way..
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 07:56:57 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline ImADot

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #230 on: July 31, 2008, 09:04:43 AM »
Ok, so this thread has been hijacked something like three or four times now.  There was a flame-war about people's self-perceptions of their combat skills; there has been discussion on dueling tactics vs main arena tactics; there has been discussion on gunnery tactics; geez, what am I missing?  After 200+ posts I kinda lost track of where the thread went.  There has been good discussion on gunnery, such as "to unload G's or not" and another topic that I can't remember because it got lost in the pile. 

My question is this:  Why can't people start a new thread once things stray so far from the original topic?  If I want to come back in the future to read some jewel of info about gunnery that is buried in this thread, I doubt very much that I'd remember that it's 3/4 the way through a thread on "Unofficial" people helping others in the Training Arena.

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Offline Adonai

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #231 on: July 31, 2008, 09:19:49 AM »
Ok, so this thread has been hijacked something like three or four times now.  There was a flame-war about people's self-perceptions of their combat skills; there has been discussion on dueling tactics vs main arena tactics; there has been discussion on gunnery tactics; geez, what am I missing?  After 200+ posts I kinda lost track of where the thread went.  There has been good discussion on gunnery, such as "to unload G's or not" and another topic that I can't remember because it got lost in the pile. 

My question is this:  Why can't people start a new thread once things stray so far from the original topic?  If I want to come back in the future to read some jewel of info about gunnery that is buried in this thread, I doubt very much that I'd remember that it's 3/4 the way through a thread on "Unofficial" people helping others in the Training Arena.

 :(

That's just how BBS's go, unfortunately I responded to someones banter and they probably didn't even read it because of all the garbage posted after.
It would be nice if someones going to hijax to simply create a new post, but you cant teach squeakers new tricks.

Offline ImADot

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #232 on: July 31, 2008, 09:27:55 AM »
It would be nice if someones going to hijax to simply create a new post, but you cant teach squeakers new tricks.

Yup, that's nothing new...I've given up reading many posts because of that...now this one is on my mental ignore list too.
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #233 on: July 31, 2008, 12:58:39 PM »
That's just how BBS's go, unfortunately I responded to someones banter and they probably didn't even read it because of all the garbage posted after.
It would be nice if someones going to hijax to simply create a new post, but you cant teach squeakers new tricks.

Umm lighten up please..The original premise of this thread had petered out anyway, first of all. Secondly, all worthwhile discussions go off on tangents. Just because a thread has 3 or 4 tangents throughout does not mean each of those tangents needs or is deserving of another thread of its own. This thread was originally just a bunch of people posting their credentials to be mentors. Just reading that kind of "Phone-book-esque" type information is a lot less interesting than what has been discussed after everyone who cared had already posted their "curriculum vitae"
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 03:12:58 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #234 on: July 31, 2008, 02:51:35 PM »
Umm lighten up please..The original premise of this thread had petered out anyway first of all. Secondly, all worthwhile discussions go off on tangents. Just because a thread has 3 or 4 tangents throughout does not mean each of those tangents needs or is deserving of another thread of its own. This thread was originally just a bunch of people posting their credentials to be mentors. Just reading that kind of "Phone-book-esque" type information is a lot less interesting than what has been discussed after everyone who cared had already posted their "curriculum vitae"

Amen to that.   
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Offline DoNKeY

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #235 on: July 31, 2008, 07:17:26 PM »
I totally get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree with you. But, that is not what I meant really. What I mean is the less relative E you have compared to your opponent, the more you are angles fighting, the more you angles fight, the more the fight will devolve into stallfighting eventually, it's the nature of air combat. During this process as relative E states erode, your options (and his) to use E to create angles diminish gradually to the point where it's almost non-existant. That is not to say you don't have to think about E management at all by any means, you will just have fewer and fewer ways available to have effective E management make a substantial impact on the angle or your position relative to the foe, especially since you started out Co-E/Co-Alt and can each theoretically neutralize or counter any move by virtue of E/Option parity..

It is to say that E management becomes much less a process unto itself, for its own sake, to create angles and more simply a secondary consideration while attempting to get an advantageous angle and keep it relative to your opponent. This is especially true the closer the fight gets toward a stallfight. There is a critical point of no return where the angle you have right before you both become E bankrupt and begin stallfighting that your relative angular position will be almost "cast in stone". From that point forward neither of you will have the relative E to change it much, if it all. This is the "riding the edge" phase. Generally, whoever rides the edge of the stall best will be able to change the angle enough for a shot and win, this involves almost no E management whatsoever as you don't have any E to manage. So, from the beginning to that point, E management, as a means to its own end, becomes less and less important than the angles and your position relative the your opponent in a progressive way..

I also see where you're coming from, and respect your opinion, but it just doesn't work out that way for me.  Can we both agree that angles fighting has a element of E fighting, and vice versa, that in a way they are really interconnected more then some people give credit for, which could be why we differ on this subject, even though both parties arguments seem right/acceptable?

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #236 on: July 31, 2008, 07:38:08 PM »
I also see where you're coming from, and respect your opinion, but it just doesn't work out that way for me.  Can we both agree that angles fighting has a element of E fighting, and vice versa, that in a way they are really interconnected more then some people give credit for, which could be why we differ on this subject, even though both parties arguments seem right/acceptable?



Ok, I think I can distill this. E/Angles fighting aren't mutually exclusive, but they can be somewhat inversely proportional in terms of consideration during the life cycle of an isolated encounter.

Does that sound about right?
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #237 on: July 31, 2008, 08:04:34 PM »
Does that sound about right?

Not unless you define what each of the terms (E fighting and angles fighting) mean to you.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #238 on: July 31, 2008, 08:14:50 PM »
Not unless you define what each of the terms (E fighting and angles fighting) mean to you.

I don't think I could ever hope to explain it to you satisfactorily. There is something missing in our ability to understand one another. I think our perspectives are so incredibly divergent it's like you are speaking Chinese and I am speaking German. I've actually never had this problem before in many years of these types of discourses. I can always "get into" the other guy's skin and visualize what he is describing, even if I've never had the direct experience myself. With you I cannot for some reason, it's an enigma.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 08:28:34 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please
« Reply #239 on: July 31, 2008, 08:39:55 PM »
Ok, I think I can distill this. E/Angles fighting aren't mutually exclusive, but they can be somewhat inversely proportional in terms of consideration during the life cycle of an isolated encounter.

Does that sound about right?

lol Zaz, what the hell does that actualy mean??   :P sometimes ya can use too many words to describe something simple. Are you saying they are both part of dogfighting and practicing one exclusively is foolhardy? no flame here sir you know you have my respect, i honestly have no clue what you are saying :D
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