Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please

[Zazen13]

Meanwhile you can read about how community defined stall fighting (from AW days):
http://www.netaces.org/stall-1/stall-1.htm

Read the first paragraph where he gives his definition. That's an incredibly loose definition of stall fighing, "Stallfighting is any fight where you are turning close to each other" (paraphrased). That could mean almost anything you could possibly imagine... I've read that before, he mentions everything under the sun, it's just as much about E/Angles fighting as anything else. He only actually mentions the word stalling once in the entire dialogue...For example of how loose that is, I'll go a turn or three after I bounce someone where I chop throttle and am in tight so he can't recover position or escape, by Shaky's loosy-goosy definition I'm "stallfighting", but I'm no where close to stallspeed, neither is the guy I'm killing...I'm angles fighting, exchanging my energy for angles resulting in a net loss of E. Referring to any maneuver sequence that includes a tight turn as a stallfight makes the term meaningless.

[Zazen13]

Your all right to some degree.  Zazen is discussing the fight that degenerates into a horizontal lufbery where neither plane can gain a quick advantage.  I've been in plenty of these and some have gone on so long I was getting bored (5-10 minutes isn't unusual).  In this fight, the first guy to auger or the first guy to try to break out of it dies.

Yes, that's a pure stallfight. You can't get E because if you try your goose is cooked.

[Zazen13]

To me, that's how I've always defined stall fighting.

As for stall fighting being a purely horizontal technique, an example of a stall fighting manuever that can be used in a P-38 is the oft mentioned 'Cloverleaf'.  Those are a series of vertical stall turns the P-38 performs, not horizontal.


ack-ack

Yea, I always loved watching +mir do that in AW. The 38's incredible maneuvering flaps allow it to get it's nose up even at crazy slow speeds. You can't do that in any other plane that I can think of.

[2bighorn]

but I'm no where close to stallspeed, neither is the guy I'm killing...

Maybe that's why we run in circles. Stall fighting is not defined with speed alone, but also AoA, etc. If you want you can ride stall at just about any speed where you're not limited by pilot (blackout/redout)

I'm angles fighting, exchanging my energy for angles resulting in a net loss of E. Referring to any maneuver sequence that includes a tight turn as a stallfight makes the term meaningless.

Perhaps. To me is just another term. We can define it as angles fighting, perhaps a subset of angles fighting or we can create new definition as you did it for yourself. That doesn't mean it will be accepted by community at large.

[Zazen13]

Maybe that's why we run in circles. Stall fighting is not defined with speed alone, but also AoA, etc. If you want you can ride stall at just about any speed where you're not limited by pilot (blackout/redout)

Perhaps. To me is just another term. We can define it as angles fighting, perhaps a subset of angles fighting or we can create new definition as you did it for yourself. That doesn't mean it will be accepted by community at large.

We're just talking semantics here. What you call Stallfighting I call Angles Fighting. You can call it a Fat Lady's Fart for all care so long as we realize that we're talking about two essentially different things. Batfink figured that out a few posts ago. If the only qualification you have for Stallfighting is that one or both planes have to at some point in a sequence of maneuvers get at or near stall speed then when I rope someone, stalling him out then looping over the top, throwing flaps out and stalling over myself with gravity assist to blow him away, I'm Stallfighting. That's just plain silly...

[2bighorn]

Batfink figured that out a few posts ago.

He also figured that it already has a name. Lufbery. And to be blunt only beginners or those who don't have a clue about stall fighting would consider lufbery as the only form of stall fighting.

If the only qualification you have for Stallfighting is that one or both planes have to at some point in a sequence of maneuvers get at or near stall speed then when I rope someone, stalling him out and loop over the top, throw flaps out and stall over myself with gravity assist to blow him away, I'm Stallfighting.

At that point and for that short moment yes.

That's just plain silly..

No, what's silly is you trying to categorize and over analyze just about everything.

E fighting and angles fighting, as defined, both have same elements, both use same BFMs, have same goals. The difference is in approach. One gives more weight to certain aspects than other and vice versa.

Take a look at the top and well rounded pilots, like Murdr, TC, Batfink, WW, Akak  (to name just a few taking part in this thread).

For example TC and Murdr would gravitate towards E fighting, but when circumstances are right they'd switch to angles pursuit in a heart bit.
Bat is more of an angles fighter, yet he would take every E advantage and use it well if given opportunity. Same for WW and Akak.

You can sort anything into your boxes as you wish, but on the end, you're just limiting yourself.

[Zazen13]

E fighting and angles fighting, as defined, both have same elements, both use same BFMs, have same goals. The difference is in approach. One gives more weight to certain aspects than other and vice versa.

Woohoo! You finally got it! Congratulations! It was like mining for diamonds in mud but you finally got there! 

[2bighorn]

Finally? We are repeating like parrots through 10+ pages.

Don't forget, putting certain aspect behind of another due to tactics does not decrease its importance (hint: E).

[Zazen13]

Oh, by the way did you check the stall limiter thing, was it still on by default?

[2bighorn]

Oh, by the way did you check the stall limiter thing, was it still on by default?

No, it was off.  I guess it has more to do with my approach. But nothing what little bit of practice couldn't fix, eh?

[Zazen13]

No, it was off.  I guess it has more to do with my approach. But nothing what little bit of practice couldn't fix, eh?

You should let people look at your films, that helped me a alot in the past. It's hard to be objective about your own stuff, other people can watch it and see things you would never even notice or think twice about. It's kind of like trying to proof-read your own essays, someone else doing it is always better.

[Adonai]

You should let people look at your films, that helped me a alot in the past. It's hard to be objective about your own stuff, other people can watch it and see things you would never even notice or think twice about. It's kind of like trying to proof-read your own essays, someone else doing it is always better.

Absolutely right, I made the mistake of asking in game for "help" on flying a Me-109 and before reading the BBS on who actually flown it "regular" I got some kid who flew it for 2 weeks and sent me a bunch of films on how "he" flew it and I never won a fight 1 on 1 in the main arena. However after a few months flying the me-109 I regularly post films to ask people how I flew reguardless if they flew a 109 or not and I get what I am looking for, the answer to the common question "How Can I improve myself". Zazen's answer is correct - you will hear from some whose tactics agree and others who say "I would never do that" just remember you are asking a question that can be answered in a variety of ways - just take the information in and use it the best you can 

[DoNKeY]

You should let people look at your films, that helped me a alot in the past. It's hard to be objective about your own stuff, other people can watch it and see things you would never even notice or think twice about. It's kind of like trying to proof-read your own essays, someone else doing it is always better.

At the risk of sounding like an ankle humper, I'll just say this about bighorn due to all of the hard work he's put in over the years at making himself the top notch pilot he is...

There's a very, very small number of people who could actually offer suggestions on how he could improve (no I'm not one of them, calm down people).  Why fix what's broken?

[Zazen13]

At the risk of sounding like an ankle humper, I'll just say this about bighorn due to all of the hard work he's put in over the years at making himself the top notch pilot he is...

There's a very, very small number of people who could actually offer suggestions on how he could improve (no I'm not one of them, calm down people).  Why fix what's broken?

I'm just speaking for anyone generally. I have no clue who Bighorn is in the game, when he didn't even know if he had the stall limiter on/off I assumed he was fairly new. Everyone could improve probably though, so saying he's too good for someone to help improve is probably incorrect. Letting someone else watch your films is a great way to do that. I remember the first time I did that. I am right handed and intuitively knew turning left, into my body,  would be easier, but never really thought much about it. Someone watched some of my films once and showed me that anytime I turned right I would pull off the angle, then over-compensate too much, increase the loading and burn E unnecessarily...Had someone not brought that to my conscious attention I never would have thought twice about it or been able to correct it.

[Zazen13]

Absolutely right, I made the mistake of asking in game for "help" on flying a Me-109 and before reading the BBS on who actually flown it "regular" I got some kid who flew it for 2 weeks and sent me a bunch of films on how "he" flew it and I never won a fight 1 on 1 in the main arena. However after a few months flying the me-109 I regularly post films to ask people how I flew reguardless if they flew a 109 or not and I get what I am looking for, the answer to the common question "How Can I improve myself". Zazen's answer is correct - you will hear from some whose tactics agree and others who say "I would never do that" just remember you are asking a question that can be answered in a variety of ways - just take the information in and use it the best you can 

Exactly there are practically as many perspectives as there are people. The irony is the most valuable perspectives I ever get are from new players. Unlike those that have been playing forever they don't "label" things or compartmentalize experience as much as we do, they don't have a preset concept of anything really. So, their observations, perspective and reactions to things are in a way more pure and therefore insightful.