Author Topic: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people  (Read 5134 times)

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2008, 12:39:51 PM »
Well, if your prey is making a low speed bat turn and you're faster, you take a high turn, hehehe  :D

Yup, but when you refer to both of those actions as a "turn" it can be misconstrued by those not well versed in the vernacular of air combat maneuvers. If a slower plane does a "bat" turn, as you describe it, then you go up for a high yo-yo in a fast plane, which I assume is what you mean, you are essentially E fighting him, not turn-fighting him. You're exploiting your energy advantage to create an angle you could not likely achieve by the raw relative turn-rate of your aircraft alone. That would be completely different than chopping throttle, dropping a notch or three of flaps and trying to "bat" turn with him in the direct sense, that would truly be turn-fighting. A high Yo-Yo, in that example, is an indirect way to fight him and is therefore, in essence, E fighting not turn-fighting.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 01:26:30 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2008, 03:25:51 PM »
Steve,

I would agree that cockpit view and decelleration are minor P51 assets.  However, against an equally experienced (whatever that means) opponent in a Spit or 109, these are relatively less important for sustained close-in fights than turn rate/radius, accelleration, and climb.  Thus against this hypothetical equally experienced opponent, you engage with transient advantage, try to maintain this advantage as long as you can while you take whatever shot(s) you have, and then once the advantage against the Spit or 109 inevitably expires, if it is still undestroyed, you dive away and use your speed advantage to disengage.  During the above process the P51 could decellerate down to stall speed, so I'm not advocating "keeping your speed up".  Just advocating retaining enough energy (possibly in the form of altitude-related potential energy) to allow escape should you not destroy the opponent. 

For example, I rarely overshoot a decellerating opponent (being a moderately experienced player).  Instead I try to remain aware of the possibility of overshoot and if necessary counter with something like a high yo-yo. 

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 03:29:43 PM by TDeacon »

Offline Widewing

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2008, 05:37:07 PM »

And no, he didn't shoot me down.

Widewing did though! Nice shot from a ship of some sort as I desended to find someone who would fight.

Last evening I was flying P-38s the whole time, except for a few minutes in a Wirby. I did collect an unexpected kill though.. Probably was puffy ack that got you and I wasn't far away, getting the proximity kill. I was flying top cover over the CV in a P-38L and had just whacked a P-51D when a second kill popped into the text buffer.

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Offline Steve

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2008, 05:57:42 PM »
Steve,

I would agree that cockpit view and decelleration are minor P51 assets. 

So you agree with me, cool. 
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Offline evenhaim

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2008, 06:14:37 PM »
A good shot in a mustang such as the guys who have posted in this thread, tango steve widewing to mention a few dont need to go more than 1 or 2 turns at corner speed to kill most anything in the sky.
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2008, 06:29:43 PM »
A good shot in a mustang such as the guys who have posted in this thread, tango steve widewing to mention a few dont need to go more than 1 or 2 turns at corner speed to kill most anything in the sky.

No arguments there. I will be the first to tell anyone, great gunnery can make up for almost anything..Bad plane match-up, bad situation, bad position, bad angle, bad flying, bad plane, etc...The list is almost endless. But, not a lot of people have the calibre of gunnery that is going to bail them out of unrestrained "duck out of water" flying...

Heck, I remember in a historical AW scenario. I was alone, low n' slow in a JU88 against 15+ low enemy fighters and got 8 fighter kills before they finally got me. I had never even flown the JU88 before...It was just pure gunnery...I didn't film it, but I am sure if I had and reviewed the film I would conclude it had almost nothing to do with my plane or how I flew it...
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Offline dtango

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2008, 06:37:41 PM »
Well, if your prey is making a low speed bat turn and you're faster, you take a high turn, hehehe  :D

Yes, a high yo-yo may be effective :).  But the rate at which you can trade altitude for energy is constrained by the relationship of the specific excess power of the particular aircraft, therefore by implication so are the angles.  For instance try using a high yo-yo in a Mustang when you're at 400 mph IAS against a Spit IX in a horizontal max turn at 225 mph.  Very hard to be able to convert the Mustang's energy into a positional advantage for a shot using a hi yo-yo when the relative differences in speed are that great in this situation.

....

And freez, you're much too kind :).

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Offline evenhaim

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2008, 07:23:37 PM »
No arguments there. I will be the first to tell anyone, great gunnery can make up for almost anything..Bad plane match-up, bad situation, bad position, bad angle, bad flying, bad plane, etc...The list is almost endless. But, not a lot of people have the calibre of gunnery that is going to bail them out of unrestrained "duck out of water" flying...

Heck, I remember in a historical AW scenario. I was alone, low n' slow in a JU88 against 15+ low enemy fighters and got 8 fighter kills before they finally got me. I had never even flown the JU88 before...It was just pure gunnery...I didn't film it, but I am sure if I had and reviewed the film I would conclude it had almost nothing to do with my plane or how I flew it...
Agreed zaz, but thats whats nice about the 51d, the 6 .50 cals have such a range of firing angles that they are more flexible in certain gunnery situations. Its scarey that I know your story is true ;)

Tango credit goes where it is due.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 07:25:14 PM by evenhaim »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2008, 08:04:26 PM »
Agreed zaz, but thats whats nice about the 51d, the 6 .50 cals have such a range of firing angles that they are more flexible in certain gunnery situations. Its scarey that I know your story is true ;)

Tango credit goes where it is due.

Yup, I don't like to fly any plane that doesn't have a great nose-low deflection view for that very reason. It opens up a huge repertoire of shots that you just don't have in planes that have poor nose-low deflection views. If you're a crack-shot sniper, you want as many opportunities to use that gift as possible no matter how high the deflection is. If you're a poor-mediocre shot it wouldn't really matter that much because you're going to usually want to keep the deflection as low as possible by maneuvering into the saddle anyway which is almost never "blind", even in planes with poor nose-low deflection views.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 08:06:37 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline BnZ

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2008, 07:15:53 PM »
Steve:
I know this is quite true, and seen your films of it working, but it still strikes me as something that works because many opponents are a just a little too relaxed while flying, too complacent and maneuvering on some preconceived notion of "what ponies do" instead of what the pony on the screen in front of them is doing. This in turn is a purely artificial product of the P-51D's popularity and the attendant number of noobs flying it.

I remember something a WWII pilot said..."Always fly like its the Red Baron in the other plane", or something to that effect, and I think that might be the single greatest piece of advise any AHII pilot can hear. Afterall, the guy in front of you might be a veteran of 0 combats or tens of thousands...assume the latter, and you'll always be pleasantly surprised if they make a mistake, instead of very unpleasantly surprised when they kill you.




I'm talking about deceleration. Often, a guy bouncing a pony is balls to the wall because he hasn't given consideration to the fact that the pony may try something other than just running.  With it's ability to drop flaps early, and a decent sized rudder surface, the pony decelerates pretty well. Yes, there are a couple of other planes that slow down faster but in my mind, this is an asset to the pony. Not only does it decelerate decently, but like I said, many opponents catch on to the deceleration late.  I am convinced that this is, at least in part, due to the 51's reputation/ability to run.



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Offline Bruv119

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2008, 03:38:48 AM »
Afterall, the guy in front of you might be a veteran of 0 combats or tens of thousands...assume the latter, and you'll always be pleasantly surprised if they make a mistake, instead of very unpleasantly surprised when they kill you.

That is probably the biggest reason we get addicted to this game and keep playing it.  So many games out there can be completed or finished or ended.  AH is unique and there is always someone out there that will beat you at one time or another.  It is never ending.  Enjoy the fights, enjoy the banter. 

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Offline Kweassa

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2008, 02:56:59 PM »
Quote
Spoken plainly, you're a liar who is obviously more interested in attempting to condescend in an effort to appear more enlightened thatn the next guy rather than actually discuss what is occurring in the exchange. You can change my words to try to make yourself look sage to the unwashed masses but I won't allow it.

 No Steve.

 I'm a guy endowed with a gift of cynicism, who usually tend to pick on the "veterans" and their way of belittling and ridiculing what the "not-so-gifted" bunch of pilots have to do to survive in the MA, for the sake of the many n00bs and average pilots who go searching on these boards for an answer. I've been on these boards almost as long as anyone else, and in time I've seen what usually them "vets" chest thump on the boards, and actually do out in the field, can be many different things.

 Oh I've seen how you fly too, Steve, and I have great respect for what you can do in the field. Many people would give anything to be able to fly like you, and envy you for how you can make them P-51s truly shine. But Steve, sometimes, guys like you don't really see how the reality of the world goes around you, much less really know what makes them so successful themselves. Those guys come to the boards talking in half-truths and a lot of wishful thinking which usually revolves around on supposing everyone in the MA should be at their level of skill, and any other way to fly is n00bish, unexciting, unnecessary.

 It is those type of arguments which I usually come along with a pitchfork and tend to screw around with, and I couldn't care less what you think about me. This was never about you in the first place.

 
 

 
 

 

Offline Steve

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2008, 03:25:53 PM »
No Steve.

 I'm a guy endowed with a gift of cynicism, who usually tend to pick on the "veterans" and their way of belittling and ridiculing what the "not-so-gifted" bunch of pilots have to do to survive in the MA, for the sake of the many n00bs and average pilots who go searching on these boards for an answer. I've been on these boards almost as long as anyone else, and in time I've seen what usually them "vets" chest thump on the boards, and actually do out in the field, can be many different things.

 Oh I've seen how you fly too, Steve, and I have great respect for what you can do in the field. Many people would give anything to be able to fly like you, and envy you for how you can make them P-51s truly shine. But Steve, sometimes, guys like you don't really see how the reality of the world goes around you, much less really know what makes them so successful themselves. Those guys come to the boards talking in half-truths and a lot of wishful thinking which usually revolves around on supposing everyone in the MA should be at their level of skill, and any other way to fly is n00bish, unexciting, unnecessary.

 It is those type of arguments which I usually come along with a pitchfork and tend to screw around with, and I couldn't care less what you think about me. This was never about you in the first place.

 
 

Spoken plainly, Kweassa, I overreacted. I offer my apology, unencumbered by any "buts". 
I didn't mean to belittle anyone when I disputed that speed is the pony's only weapon.  Did it come off that way? I really didn't mean it to. I just would like to see anyone new person who is considering spending any time in a pony use it for purposes other than gun and run. As I mentioned, with many opponents expecting a pony to do just that, it does have a couple of tricks up its' sleeve, if not  many.
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2008, 03:29:58 PM »
Quote
Spoken plainly, Kweassa, I overreacted. I offer my apology, unencumbered by any "buts". 

 Don't worry Steve. I'm quite adept in being a sore thorn in someone else's butt, so I'm really used to being flamed at. :D

 But let me try to explain my POV on this matter;



Quote
Certainly speed is the pony's primary asset. I don't know that you can consider its' views an asset in the same vein you would consider speed one. For the sake of this discussion, let's say it is more of a passive asset and we are talking about active assets, agreed?

 The way you think how "speed" is a "passive" asset sort of proves my point.

 For you, a very experienced and skilled player, SA comes almost mandatory, near levels of instinct, that your choice of engagements are never bothered by the actual possibility of being shot-down from the sky. But like I said, guys like you forget that the rest 70~80% of the MA population, the average guys of the world, cannot all be like you. For them, gaining victories and having fun in the air comes with a premise that THEY HAVE TO SURVIVE THAT LONG TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ANY KIND OF FUN in the first place.

 To them, speed (or rather, the ability to choose the engagements of their liking, and be able to disengage at will, that can be provided by being in speedy plane) is not a passive factor. It is THE primary factor, and an absolutely most important factor that keeps them in the air.

 
Quote
Speed is one thing that opens up the door for another weapon; one that is not in many 51' pilot's repertoire.  It's not that they couldn't use it, no doubt many could but I don't see many do it. In fact, very very few.

 Many 51 pilots, huh? So who are they? I'll bet you can name a lot of them, those pilots who you can consider a '51 pilot'.

 But how about the 'other' P-51 pilots? The UNNAMED guys of the MA who you'd rarely ever remember or recognize, since none of them are ever really in a league where you'd be able to remember them for their exceptional performance in the MA. Are you aware of the fact that many, many such anonymous pilots in the MA, are also P-51 fans, and fly P-51s a lot? Are you aware they fly in a very different manner than you, or those who you consider to be P-51 pilots?

 How about me?

 I bet you may have seen me a few times in the MA, but never really remember how I fly the P-51s. Ofcourse, I'm not a big P-51 fan, so my experience in the plane, and the skills needed to fly it are quite minimal. It remains at a basic level BFM principles where all I can comfortably muster, is how I may be able to fly it to a certain principle. Should I throw away what I understand as the "speed" asset of the P-51, and try flying like you? It just won't work.

 Most people don't really grow out of this phase. Average guys like us, have a different rule, a different set of necessities that keep us alive and faring well in the skies - and vets tend to forget that.

 
Quote
I'm talking about deceleration. Often, a guy bouncing a pony is balls to the wall because he hasn't given consideration to the fact that the pony may try something other than just running.  With it's ability to drop flaps early, and a decent sized rudder surface, the pony decelerates pretty well.

 What if there's another bogey around? Oh wait, is it one of those presuppositions that you are already in a situation where you have all the time in the world to try this stuff and that? Wow geez, how does one gain that sort of luxury? Most usually we fly in the skies and would meet more than one or two enemy planes around. What do you do in that situation, Steve? Engage all of them at that spot with flaps popping out, slowing in the presence of other enemies and intentionally make yourself vulnerable against enemy fire?

 Come to think of it, how does one land in that kind of 1vs1 situation in the first place?

 Speed!

 You fly around high and fast, look for opportunities, see multiple targets heading in your direction, and turn back. Fly a few miles, most of them bugger away and go elsewhere. Oh look, there's one guy left. Nobody else in the area. I now have time to fight him 1vs1. Would you have been able to do that if you were in a plane considerably slower than the P-51? Well may you would have, but I know for certain most average guys wouldn't be.


Quote
Yes, there are a couple of other planes that slow down faster but in my mind, this is an asset to the pony. Not only does it decelerate decently, but like I said, many opponents catch on to the deceleration late.  I am convinced that this is, at least in part, due to the 51's reputation/ability to run.

 What if that someone behind you already presupposes that you will try decceleration and overshoots, and makes enough preparations for it?

 See, both are assumptions on what the enemy pilot might be thinking, and yet, your assumptions can lead to death, while my assumptions leave room for caution, and emergency run-away when things go bad. Like mentioned above, vets hardly ever do meet someone more skilled or sharp and tactful in the area of maneuvering that you guys just forget that for all the rest of the guys in the sky, every engagement comes at a considerable death risk they have to be carfeful about. Yes, everyone has to risk something if they are going to fight, but vets like you can put all the eggs in one basket and still emerge unscathed.

 However, the "vet" POV is a quite narrow POV. The lesser, unnamed, unfamous, and not-so-skilled pilots around have a very different POV. You'll see where I'm getting at. There are a lot of people in the MA who need more than just one baskets to put their eggs in. Some of them may be able to grow out of that phase, but many of them, will not.


Quote
I'm not going to convince the experts of this, I mean, what do I know? But there is no way for anyone to convince me I'm wrong either.  I've used this tool in the MA to my advantage many times and against experienced opponents.  From my own experience, it works much more often that it fails.  YMMV.

 That's why people say you are skilled, and praise for you what you can do in the P-51. That is also why your line of advice, is like giving amateuer pitchers advice that they should be throwing the ball like Greg Maddox. Right and wrong is a relative term.

 I admit your advice does rings true for people on your own league, Steve.

 Unfortunately, most of the people aren't in your league. They are in MY league.[/i] :D



 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 03:36:03 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2008, 04:19:00 PM »

 The way you think how "speed" is a "passive" asset sort of proves my point.

 For you, a very experienced and skilled player, SA comes almost mandatory, near levels of instinct, that your choice of engagements are never bothered by the actual possibility of being shot-down from the sky. But like I said, guys like you forget that the rest 70~80% of the MA population, the average guys of the world, cannot all be like you. For them, gaining victories and having fun in the air comes with a premise that THEY HAVE TO SURVIVE THAT LONG TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ANY KIND OF FUN in the first place.

 To them, speed (or rather, the ability to choose the engagements of their liking, and be able to disengage at will, that can be provided by being in speedy plane) is not a passive factor. It is THE primary factor, and an absolutely most important factor that keeps them in the air.

 

This is so incredibly important to understand when discussing practically anything on these boards. It just amazes me that so few people understand this. I did ALOT of training back in the day, when Moses was in diapers, and I've seen literally thousands of players grow from complete N00bs to highly experienced players. I can categorically promise you the following is as true as gravity holds your arse to the planet...

Not Everyone...

1) Learns at the same rate.
2) Begins with the same innate conception of gunnery and flying respectively.
3) Has the same maximum potential gunnery and flying skill respectively.
4) Interprets air combat experiences or adapts to them the same way over time.

I know hundreds of people who have been flying amny years and really try their butts off, but are still poor to mediocre at gunnery and/or flying. Conversely, I know hundreds of people who had never touched a joystick in their lives until playing, but within a year were "Air Gods" at gunnery and/or flying with very little effort.

Stang, is a great example, he was still a teenager when he started, but I noticed him right away, he stuck out like a virgin in a brothel. I told Soup (4510), "That kid is going to be way better than me one day, you just watch". Well, it didn't take long for that "one day" to happen. Within a year Stang could fly circles around me, he was already better than I ever thought about being and I had 8-9'ish years (about a million air combat fighter hours) of flying experience on him. It all just made perfect sense to him right from the beginning.

I'm an example of another common type. By the 3rd day of playing AW I was making shots that made people shake their heads in awe. I was popping people from insane angles, never really having to outfly them to kill them. Deflection gunnery to me was like wiping your butt. In my mind, if you could hit your bunghole with a piece of toilet paper you could hit someone at 30 degrees deflection while inverted and doing the dishes. Shooting was so easy for me I never really had to do any fancy flying to kill with great efficiency. As a result I rarely landed kills in the beginning because I'd eventually get backed into a corner and outflown even though I flew mostly Spits and 109s at the time. However, I became a decent flyer eventually, but never truly great and in almost 20 years, with much effort, I've only grown from decent to merely above average in the flying department. But, I'm still one of the more gifted shotmakers in the game even though I'm much older and half-blind now.

The point is we are all unique, we simply can't say anything vaguely close to.."Well, Steve can do X,Y,Z in a Pony so should RandomGuy13, if not now, eventually". The whole is greater than the sum of its parts when it comes to the plane/pilot dynamic in an air combat game. You have the plane, which is a hardcoded bit of imaginary data portrayed as a cartoon to us and you have the individual pilot which is an incredibly unique blend of innate talent, acquired skills, experience and perspective. Combine the two and you have an almost infinite variety of potential styles, approaches and skill levels, even when comparing people who fly just one type of aircraft like the P51.

In the final analysis there's only two measures that can be compared between pilots...Effectiveness and Fun...You are either effective at killing people within a reasonable period of time, however you choose to do it (except vulching), or you're not, it's pretty simple and quantifiable. The same goes for fun, you're either having fun or not. If you're not having fun flying a certain way, fly another way. If you find dying un-fun, fly accordingly. If you find flying by the seat of your pants fun, even if it means getting horrendously defiled by a pack of ganging lamers from time to time, do that until the sun falls from the sky. Balancing fun and effectiveness, which are sometimes mutually enhancing or can be mutually exclusive, is the real goal of everyone who truly loves cartoon air combat. But, it almost never equates to the same exact thing for any two people, it's almost like your fingerprint in that respect...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 05:57:49 PM by Zazen13 »
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