Adjustment to Scoring (idea)

[Zazen13]

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The solution really is to up from a different field and attack the vulchers at altitude, in force if need be.  Good old fashioned fighter sweeps can be a lot of fun.

 

There's almost never time for this...There would be if we somehow forestalled the onset of tight CAP vulching which is the whole point of this. The way it works now with the milk-hordes is once they've got the field vulched and the defenders have zero chance of getting off the runway, much less to the town, the capture is imminent. On average it takes less than 5 minutes once the milk-horde is over the target field. It takes a while to get a fighter a full sector prepared to engage at really bad odds, almost always too long.

[saantana]

Are you sure about that? I tried it...I got up and turned (lazily) 90 degrees.

It would certainly give the newer players with not a lot of experience a harder time in pulling lead.
However seasoned players in this will be able to pull lead on a lazy low E turn without too much of a problem. You will still make for an easy kill on the first pass.
The advantage of that is it will probably put me further away from the field, so if you up again, I will have a harder time to come back and do the same thing. Even if I do shoot you down again, I will be further lower on E and eventually I will either have to settle for a co-e fight, or get out of there all together.
Yes, I can see that happening. But I'm not sure how that would impact yours and my fun factor.
If the field is not deacked, in most cases I will not dive on you because of that. It takes atleast 30 seconds to get away from field ack after take off. Isn't that the same deterrant to go for the kill as what you are asking for?
Sorry I couldn't resist to respond 

[saantana]

Also think about it. Do you really want 3 or 4 guys 200 out on your six holding fire with a stop watch in their hands counting down the seconds until they open up? I would rather them just get it over and done with! 

[Zazen13]

You will still make for an easy kill on the first pass.

All that is needed is at least the E for a determined defender to have a chance to avoid a high-speed gun pass from a vulcher. Compared to the chance he has on the takeoff spot this is plenty. A lot of very skilled players love the idea of base defense, these types won't need much E to make it fun, they just need to be in the air.

[Zazen13]

Also think about it. Do you really want 3 or 4 guys 200 out on your six holding fire with a stop watch in their hands counting down the seconds until they open up? I would rather them just get it over and done with! 

Well, you're assuming you're the only defender in that example. Give players a fighting chance at defense and there will be multiple defenders getting airborne at any given time. So, you won't be the only chicken bone....Chances are some of them are going to be able to avoid the first pass which will improve everyone's chances.

[TheDudeDVant]

When the plane that just took off kills my plane ot GV near the town on second 25 - that won't count for him either I guess? 

Ya.. that is a down side..

I say make it 30secs after t/o or until the said upper fires his weapon... Which ever comes first.. After they fire.. they're fair game 8)

[Lusche]

Ya.. that is a down side..

I say make it 30secs after t/o or until the said upper fires his weapon... Which ever comes first.. After they fire.. they're fair game 8)

Well, I was exaggerating a bit to make my point there. Crockett's indeed right when he points out that within 30 seconds from spawning, you will barely be able to get airborne & retract gears.

[Saurdaukar]

I like it.

[Agent360]

First, Strafings idea is AN EXCELLANT ONE. I vote YES.

Second...oh boy hear it comes...

This SAANTANA character is a complete idiot. I am glad he is posting though because his mentality is exactly WHY strafings idea is a good one. All of his statements about the issue demonstrate why the 30 sec rule is a good one. He is also the type who is ruing the integrity of this game. AHII is not like BF2 or CS. It actually takes intelectual skill to play AH2 unlike kiddie/playstation shooters.

Now my thoughts:
We have established that the 30 sec rule still allows vulching to occur. If you want to base take then suppress the uppers and get it done.

But this nonsense of killing ack to score potato vulch is NOT in the best interest of fun. I am not a fan of vulching. When I am enjoying a nice fight that finally ends up at the enemy base and a vulch is initiated I just leave. I am looking for a fight. I up at capped bases all the time because often it is the only fight happening (big maps IMO have not done anything to improve game play only promote more dweebery). I play to fly against other planes...to engage in ACM...to have a challenge. Vulching is equilivent to smashing mail boxes or donuting nice lawns like punk kids do --having fun at the expense of others while being the biggest phalic head possible.

There is nothing wrong with the 30 sec rule idea. If you want to vulch "for fun" then do it. Your just not going to get "rewarded" for it. What is wrong with that? Since your doing it for fun to start with why would you care about the points unless you are really doing it for stat padding. The rule has no effect on base taking. NONE. It does mean that the score system will now reflect more accuratly a players real ranking and stop ghost account vulching, squaddies trading vulching each other....etc

I just don't see how anyone could object to this idea except players who really shouldnt be playing this game anyway. Perhaps a FPS is more your style where you can play with "kids" who spend their time "having fun" doing nothing but disrupting the game in anyway possible. Just like that squad that does nothing but pork any base with a furball going so they can "be hated".

I personally think you should be non killable during the 30 sec rule. So to take a base you have to take out the FH. Hell man why not kill the FH.....because it's not any fun right? hummmmm. Because there won't be any airplanes to shoot at...hummmmmm. I guess by this assumption though we need the uppers so we can vulch and still have fun...right. Seems like the vuchers want their cookie and eat it too.

NOTE: My post is not directed at any of Murdr's posts. He actually stated several intelligent rebuttles to the idea unlike Saantana's idiotic posts.

[WWM]

I like it

[Delirium]

Finally read this thread for the first time...

I don't think any sane person can really say the gameplay in AH hasn't changed, it has moved away from aircombat to huge NOE missions attacking undefended fields.

I don't think this idea will stop this, but it could be a good first step.

(they need to also drop radar down to 100 feet and disable autopilot below 500 ft, if you want NOE, you gotta work for it a little)

[saantana]

First, Strafings idea is AN EXCELLANT ONE. I vote YES.

Second...oh boy hear it comes...

This SAANTANA character is a complete idiot.
Some irrelevant text here.
NOTE: My post is not directed at any of Murdr's posts. He actually stated several intelligent rebuttles to the idea unlike Saantana's idiotic posts.

You have actually added to my argument  thank you!

Edit:
This is exactly why vulching is such a good idea. 
I just don't think you can comprehend I'm having immense fun when your flaming off, and getting kills into my scoresheet for it too. And why should I not? Your being the phallic head by spawning right underneath my guns. Any kill in ACM could be defined as having fun at the expense of others. Your argument simply does not hold up.
You also suggest that only retarded punk kids vulch. Well, I think I've seen grown men quite respected in the AH community do it frequently also.
Prove me wrong.
Your also stepping on really icy ground by stating that players with opposing views to yours should not be playing this game anyway. Who the hell are you to say that?

Phail

[Murdr]

Vulching is equilivent to smashing mail boxes or donuting nice lawns like punk kids do --having fun at the expense of others while being the biggest phalic head possible.
 

My reply

[Agent360]

Murdr....that was some funny stuff. LMAO!!!

The issue at hand is quite simple. We are arguing over whether to give a reward in the first 30 seconds to people who enjoy vulching just for sake of doing it. I think the reward for base takers is not really the issue. People who take bases do so for the strategical play reward not for the vulching. A base take is not done for the sole purpose of vulching. Base taking has a whole other side...planning the mission...getting the troops there....bombing skills...preventing defenders from stopping the town kill.....etc. Capping the base and at times putting the vulch on to allow the base take to happen in necessary. I have no issue with vulching for a base take. In fact its can be the best offense vs killing the FH. By leaving the FH up the base takers can now immediatly up to either prevent a retake or start a new furball if it was near another enemy base. The 30 sec rule would not change this effort one bit. You just wouln't get the points for those kills...thats all. But I can hear it now...."I have to wait for them to get off the runway before I shoot them so I can get the points"....the base takers shout back..."you dweeb we are trying to take the base forget that kill em now"....lolololol

When a fight is going on around a base with everyone having a good time by keeping the fight some distance away for the purpose of engaging in great flying fun and a bunch of tards show up yelling "lets kill the ack and get the vulch on" well that is fun at others expense. At the expense of the ones who were there first and the ones trying to up. It's like a bunch of bullies taking over the playground and running off the ones there to start with.

Air combat has a long history of "honor among warriors". There are many accounts of real aces allowing the looser to live and even fly off. It is not necessary to always kill your opponent to win a victory. This concept still exists in the virtual world of AH2...atleast some of us try to let it exist. Others try to dismiss this idea.

The idea of allowing an opponent to at least take off and have a slight chance of winnig is in the "honor among warriors" spirit.

I enjoy upping at capped bases. To say I am a...quote by saantana "Your being the phallic head by spawning right underneath my guns." shows a very poor understanding of the issue at hand. I guarrentee there are players circling the field waiting for me to get out of ack ( if its up) so they can engage. But all it takes is just one saantana in a zeek or other convienent vulch ride to hover over the field and kill every single plane as soon as it spawns. All this does is stop a furball from starting.

When the map is big and there arent many people around often it is necessary to up at a base that is being attacked. In fact many players enjoy this kind of fight. If I could switch countires at will then I wouldn't have to do this. I would switch to a country with a balanced fight at a base and leave the vulcher to their fun. But you can't do that. And if you could switch at will the vulcher type would again ruin the fun for others by jumping missions...etc.

If vulching is only about fun then points dont matter. Have all the fun you want...no problem there. But your "fun" will no longer be confused with your acutal "skill". The real issue was tying to balance the score somewhat. To make the score reflect more closely to skill instead of no skill.

I realize there will always be "saantana types" in any game. If AH2 is destined to become a game filled with sqeaker kids who care nothing about real warriors type fighting and only care about their "fun" the game is doomed.

Hitech....if you are watching.....I know you understand this. A study of the current problems with multiplayer online games will clearly show that they are all infected with a "kid mentality". This game is unique in that it has a high learning curve...it is not easy to master if ever. That is the real value here. It continually gives a challenge. Allowing the progress of this game to cater to the 12 - 21 y/o FPS demographic will ruin it forever. The dedicated "customers" that make up the core of this game are not children. They are adults.

I urge you to listen to the mature players who have been here since the beggining like Murdr and the many other experienced players who play every day and therefor have an solid understanding of the concepts of this game.

I disagree with Murdr on the vulching issue atleast on the 30 sec rule but he as made some very intelligent points about this issue. In contrast saantana is a great example the kind of infections that will ruin the this game.

[Zazen13]

<SNIP>

. In fact its can be the best offense vs killing the FH. By leaving the FH up the base takers can now immediatly up to either prevent a retake or start a new furball if it was near another enemy base. The 30 sec rule would not change this effort one bit. You just wouln't get the points for those kills...thats all.

<SNIP>

This is an excellent point that I did not even think of when I spoke of it earlier. Murdr contends that taking the score/rank dudes out of vulching will cause hangers to be dropped more often as SoP. This is a golden reason why that may not be true. It would be in the best interest of the effort of both the toolshedders and the score potatoes to leave them up for this reason alone. Especially since they will be, presumably, facing stiffer local resistance and therefore the possibility of a counter-attack in force by the defenders. Rendering a freshly captured base indefensible would be a bad play.