Author Topic: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)  (Read 8641 times)

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #165 on: July 29, 2008, 08:48:00 PM »
Yet over the past 3 months there have been several mini-series dramas on the board that at its core, center around the already existing SOP in some circles that everything, and I mean EVERYTHING need to be flat for a field capture.  I see no reason to add validity to that line of thinking.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #166 on: July 29, 2008, 11:34:45 PM »
Another tempest in a teapot...

Folks, if you want to break the "cap", simply go to the nearest base and grab a fast fighter. What's hard about that? Nothing is more satisfying than picking the vulchers. I do this just about every night I play. Moreover, if you don't want to get vulched, don't attempt to get airborne when the base is crawling with red icons. If you get whacked, it's just Darwin's theory of MMOGs at work. You just flunked Survival 101. The "dumber than a sack of dead cats" squad is perpetually recruiting. Ask for an invite.

It's like the old gag about the guy who visits his doctor. Striking his head with a mallet, the guy says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this". The doctor replies, "well then you damned idiot, don't do that!"

As usual, someone is trying to fix a perceived problem for which there already exists a perfectly adequate solution.

I rarely get involved in vulching as I rarely join the horde. However, If I find myself at a base and some huckleberry decides he's going to take off... I'll let him... I'll allow him to get airborne, clear the base and start feeling good about it. Then, BZZZZZZ game over, back to the tower upstart!

What's next, no DWIs if you're driving within sight of the bar?


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #167 on: July 30, 2008, 12:52:54 AM »
Another tempest in a teapot...

Folks, if you want to break the "cap", simply go to the nearest base and grab a fast fighter. What's hard about that? Nothing is more satisfying than picking the vulchers. I do this just about every night I play. Moreover, if you don't want to get vulched, don't attempt to get airborne when the base is crawling with red icons. If you get whacked, it's just Darwin's theory of MMOGs at work. You just flunked Survival 101. The "dumber than a sack of dead cats" squad is perpetually recruiting. Ask for an invite.

It's like the old gag about the guy who visits his doctor. Striking his head with a mallet, the guy says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this". The doctor replies, "well then you damned idiot, don't do that!"

As usual, someone is trying to fix a perceived problem for which there already exists a perfectly adequate solution.

I rarely get involved in vulching as I rarely join the horde. However, If I find myself at a base and some huckleberry decides he's going to take off... I'll let him... I'll allow him to get airborne, clear the base and start feeling good about it. Then, BZZZZZZ game over, back to the tower upstart!

What's next, no DWIs if you're driving within sight of the bar?


My regards,

Widewing

So how would allowing a 30 second no points rule, change anything you just said there? They can still vulch if they feel the need, they just wouldn't be rewarded in points for doing it until 30 seconds has passed. So what's bad about that?
"strafing"

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #168 on: July 30, 2008, 06:00:07 AM »
So how would allowing a 30 second no points rule, change anything you just said there? They can still vulch if they feel the need, they just wouldn't be rewarded in points for doing it until 30 seconds has passed. So what's bad about that?

I don't care about points or score. I could care less who is top scorer or how they weaseled their way to that score. Neither is an incentive to me. However, I do not want to reward stupid or lazy. Your proposal will do exactly that. Those same idiots who repeatedly spawn and get vulched will be encouraged to do so as there's no penalty. It will not promote fighting. Moreover, the attacking horde will just blast all of the hangers to avoid the issue. It will also reward those too dense to figure out how to take off from a carrier or who attempt to takeoff when the carrier is under fire or turning. It "dumbs down" the game even more. Besides, this makes it more of an arcade and less of a flight sim.

To encourage fighting, you need to change the mindset of the player base at its core. 

If you want to force fights, spawn from a nearby base and come into the base under vulch and shred the vulchers. THAT is what generates fights. Indeed, the reason so many don't fight is because they can't fight. Thus, they run in packs where the mob provides alternate targets.

Of course, there's the vast coding issues involved as well.

Sorry guys, I do not see HTC changing this. As I said, there are ways to break the cap or a spawn camp without changing the game. If you're fretting about who the best pilots are, there are several ways to learn first hand.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #169 on: July 30, 2008, 06:16:51 AM »
Widewing is right. Changing the rules would only reward the lazy.

Funny story. I once spent about 30 mins in wirbel defending a base against a vulch horde. Despite my best efforts, and I'm pretty good in a WW, a lot of fighters got thru to club the baby seals on the runway.

Well eventually I got killed/VH down and came up with one of my Base relief missions from a nearby airbase. Ive ran these before and they are pretty simple rule-wise. Upp, pair up and climb to 12,000', and kill the enemy over the capped base.

As I was selling the mission on vox I stayed in tower at the capped base I watched one rook after another get murdered on the runway. And you know what? Nobody joined the mission! :lol They would rather take off from a capped base, and face almost certain death, instead of taking 5 mins out to climb for energy and come in on the enemy with advantage on their side. One guy said he didnt join the mission cause he only  flys P-51s. So he'd rather upp 51s from a capped base instead of coming in with Alt, in Spits.

And people wonder why I bombtruck so much. :lol
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline saantana

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 763
      • Dywizjon 308
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #170 on: July 30, 2008, 07:07:55 AM »
I think this thread is going to get skuzzified soon.
Widewing touched something I was trying to get at. I'm sorry I cannot articulate myself as well as he. He might be older, after all I am only 23. I hope this also comes with age. Or maybe I'm just thick?  :cry
I'm going to repeat what I said. Yes, I do think your are not thinking right by spawning right underneath my guns. Do you want me to hold fire, for another guy to come in and nail you two seconds after I break off? If theres a vulch down, everytime theres an upper theres 5 friendlies already diving down on him all screaming 'MINE MINE MINE'. I tend to laugh, because I really do think its fun!!!
Now having said that, why don't you up from another close by field since we have already forced our advantage upon you over this one, if my vulch is making you so mad? Why don't you put in an extra 4 minutes to come from a nearby field and show me your l33t skillz and try to stop me? A spit 8/14/16 or a 109 k4 will have you up at 12,000 in 3 minutes. The transit time, another 3 minutes. How hard can that be.
When MY field is being vulched, I do exactly just that. I grab a tempest and go have some more fun with the vulchers.

Agent360, if you do not like my 190 d9 / megauberspixteen over your field vulching your poor country men, come in from another field and show me what you can do about it :D

Edit: I also do not understand how you want to cut off the biggest player base of the world from this game, or why you would want to in the first place. 10-18 years old make up the most numerous player base of the world. It's just a fact of life, don't try to change it. Just deal with it.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 07:16:38 AM by saantana »
Saantana
308 Polish Squadron RAF
http://dywizjon308.servegame.org

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept my faith"

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #171 on: July 30, 2008, 07:41:59 AM »
I don't think HT has any real desire to change the game to suit the desire of the few who still look at this as an 'air combat' game.  It has literally been years since that was the desire of the playerbase (I mean, honestly.. look back to threads about hording and milkrunning from 2002-2003). 

Changing the game so that it does not reward the gameplay of the 'masses' is not in the best interest of the company, financially. 

One thing that would bring me back to the MAs is if the landgrab was fleshed out.  'Air combat' in this game has been stale and unenjoyable for me since roughly 2002-2003 - i.e. I got good enough within a year/18 months that I no longer had fun with where the gameplay went. 

The vast majority of the people who play this game WANT to blow up buildings - HTC should take this into account and add new units and ways to do that.  Adding artillery, more GVs, possibly infantry and urban warfare (or at least, urban objectives to the landgrab) would make the game a lot more interesting and a lot less like trying to jam square pegs (i.e. 80 different kinds of WW2 fighters) into round holes (the MA landgrab).

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #172 on: July 30, 2008, 09:30:34 AM »
I don't care about points or score. I could care less who is top scorer or how they weaseled their way to that score. Neither is an incentive to me. However, I do not want to reward stupid or lazy. Your proposal will do exactly that. Those same idiots who repeatedly spawn and get vulched will be encouraged to do so as there's no penalty. It will not promote fighting. Moreover, the attacking horde will just blast all of the hangers to avoid the issue. It will also reward those too dense to figure out how to take off from a carrier or who attempt to takeoff when the carrier is under fire or turning. It "dumbs down" the game even more. Besides, this makes it more of an arcade and less of a flight sim.

To encourage fighting, you need to change the mindset of the player base at its core. 

If you want to force fights, spawn from a nearby base and come into the base under vulch and shred the vulchers. THAT is what generates fights. Indeed, the reason so many don't fight is because they can't fight. Thus, they run in packs where the mob provides alternate targets.

Of course, there's the vast coding issues involved as well.

Sorry guys, I do not see HTC changing this. As I said, there are ways to break the cap or a spawn camp without changing the game. If you're fretting about who the best pilots are, there are several ways to learn first hand.

My regards,

Widewing

I seriously fail to see how allowing a 30 second no points time would reward the "lazy". First of if the intention is to cap the field to take the base, then it affects no one because they can still vulch till their heart is content but they just wont be rewarded in points for it. Rewarding the "lazy" is exactly what giving points and score does when promoting vulching by giving these tards points for doing it.

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that giving a sporting chance to the uppers is somehow "not" going to promote fighting. As for dropping the hangers well who cares? FH's get dropped all the time even at vulched fields so what difference does it make? Typically any field that gets taken that is heavily fought over usually has the hangers dropped a few time during the fight.

If the attacking team does drop the hangers, then as posted by others already, they will have to suffer the possibility that the other team will counter attack while the FH's are down. So that right there promotes fighting on the flip side by allowing for a fast counter attack. Much less if it did become a problem, then HTC could just harden up the FH's or stager the small field FH's so it took 3 seprate passes to kill all the FH's. At that point you still have a VH and BH.

BTW, I have to ask, did you even try to spawn on the runway and time out 30 seconds to see how far you get? 30 seconds is not much time and will not let a upper get in the air under a heavy vulch cap, much less stop the fact that he could still get vulched soon as he spawns in and starts his engine.

So again what exactly does it change, other than not giving points to the "lazy" vulchers but instead giving a incentive for uppers to try to defend their base. How does that "not" promote fighting?

Also the whole problem with the idea of coming from another base is the fact that can't and wont ever stop the hoard problem. People always come from other bases during the fights. The problem is typically if it's a vulched field situation the attacking team usually has the biggest hoard. Having a con or two trickle in every few mins flying from a base that is 5 mins away leaves little chance to break the horde or stop the vulch.

However giving the team being vulched a small window of opportunity to get in the air can help in breaking that vulch which will again promote fighting. I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you in the fact of you saying this wouldn't promote fighting. It gives a reason to fight.

In short you are just proving the point with your argument, that vulchers are only vulching for the WTG's/score and perk points. If you actually think the simple fact of not giving them a score for a 30 seconds after the spawn in, would change the base capture routine so much that they would rather just kill the FH's.. Well then that means the only reason they are vulching is for score and WTG's.

Also I'd be willing to bet 80% of the base taking is being done by NOE missions vs actually fighting for a base. The simple reason is, fighting for a base and gaining air superrealty to the point you can get a vulch usually take a long time or a very big hoard. On most of those occasions it's typically been a vulch party long before anyone even bothers with killing the town. Typically the only reason they turn to attacking the town is once the vulch gets boring because someone dropped the FH's or no one is upping.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 09:48:56 AM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #173 on: July 30, 2008, 09:51:36 AM »
Widewing is right. Changing the rules would only reward the lazy.


Giving score and perk points to vulchers already rewards the lazy..
"strafing"

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #174 on: July 30, 2008, 09:54:52 AM »
I don't think HT has any real desire to change the game to suit the desire of the few who still look at this as an 'air combat' game.  It has literally been years since that was the desire of the playerbase (I mean, honestly.. look back to threads about hording and milkrunning from 2002-2003). 

Changing the game so that it does not reward the gameplay of the 'masses' is not in the best interest of the company, financially. 

One thing that would bring me back to the MAs is if the landgrab was fleshed out.  'Air combat' in this game has been stale and unenjoyable for me since roughly 2002-2003 - i.e. I got good enough within a year/18 months that I no longer had fun with where the gameplay went. 

The vast majority of the people who play this game WANT to blow up buildings - HTC should take this into account and add new units and ways to do that.  Adding artillery, more GVs, possibly infantry and urban warfare (or at least, urban objectives to the landgrab) would make the game a lot more interesting and a lot less like trying to jam square pegs (i.e. 80 different kinds of WW2 fighters) into round holes (the MA landgrab).

Hell might as well just get rid of the fighters if no one wants to fight... maybe we could add a bunny hop option for the toops as well.

If and when the point of this game was no longer about air combat, then that's when I would stop being a subscriber.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 10:00:37 AM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #175 on: July 30, 2008, 10:01:57 AM »
I don't think HT has any real desire to change the game to suit the desire of the few who still look at this as an 'air combat' game.  It has literally been years since that was the desire of the playerbase (I mean, honestly.. look back to threads about hording and milkrunning from 2002-2003). 

Changing the game so that it does not reward the gameplay of the 'masses' is not in the best interest of the company, financially. 

One thing that would bring me back to the MAs is if the landgrab was fleshed out.  'Air combat' in this game has been stale and unenjoyable for me since roughly 2002-2003 - i.e. I got good enough within a year/18 months that I no longer had fun with where the gameplay went. 

The vast majority of the people who play this game WANT to blow up buildings - HTC should take this into account and add new units and ways to do that.  Adding artillery, more GVs, possibly infantry and urban warfare (or at least, urban objectives to the landgrab) would make the game a lot more interesting and a lot less like trying to jam square pegs (i.e. 80 different kinds of WW2 fighters) into round holes (the MA landgrab).

That's an interesting perspective, Urchin.

I don't disagree with the premise generally. But, I do disagree with the assertion that HTC's sole motivation for the development of this product is financial. As I said in another thread, if unmitigated financial success were the ultimate goal of those who work for HTC they would likely be designing software for a large developer in Silicon Valley somewhere. The big reason HTC continues to develop AH is an idealistic love for the genre, the subject matter and air combat specifically. That is not to say the air combat aspect needs to be developed further in exclusion to all else, with no regard for popular consensus or economics. It is to say development can proceed in a fashion that placates the goals of the original design concepts, air combat purists and the will of the masses.

For exmaple if you read back in this thread you will see my idea for specializing the roles of small/medium/large airfields to add strategic depth to the game. This would in no way shape or form destroy the fun for the air combat purists. Just as adding a 30 sec score timer to vulching would not for the landgrabbers. So, the integrity of the original design concept can be reinforced programmatically over time in tandem with fundamental improvement to the strategic depth aimed at mass appeal. This can be done without compromising the long-term viability of either aspect.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 10:19:17 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #176 on: July 30, 2008, 10:05:34 AM »
Giving score and perk points to vulchers already rewards the lazy..

Why are you so obsessed with other players score for goodness sake?  That is my number 1 issue with this, the underlying attitude, it is based on score nannying.  #2 I don't believe it will help fighting.  Only engourage a scorched earth poilcy.

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #177 on: July 30, 2008, 10:08:18 AM »
Why are you so obsessed with other players score for goodness sake?  That is my number 1 issue with this, the underlying attitude, it is based on score nannying.  #2 I don't believe it will help fighting.  Only engourage a scorched earth poilcy.

It's a means to an end. If we could somehow chop away the segment of vulchers that vulched because they weren't breast fed we could just as easily do it that way instead. It's not the score that's the obsession, it's improving gameplay.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 10:19:43 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #178 on: July 30, 2008, 10:09:12 AM »
Edit: I also do not understand how you want to cut off the biggest player base of the world from this game, or why you would want to in the first place. 10-18 years old make up the most numerous player base of the world. It's just a fact of life, don't try to change it. Just deal with it.
Are you sure about this in AH?
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #179 on: July 30, 2008, 10:12:37 AM »
Why are you so obsessed with other players score for goodness sake?  That is my number 1 issue with this, the underlying attitude, it is based on score nannying.  #2 I don't believe it will help fighting.  Only engourage a scorched earth poilcy.

I'm just countering your argument and his.. You both said that giving the upper a 30 seconds no risk period would inspire the lazy. I say giving score to the vulchers inspires the lazy. There is no reward to fight guys in the air, when they can land 5 ot 6 easy vulched kills.

I couldn't care less about score other than it would be nice to see it be a bit more realistic on the fighter side if nothing else. I want to see the fight put back in the air vs attitude of how fast can we get a air cap to get a vulch going on.

I'll ask you this if you are so dead set about not giving uppers 30 seconds.. What if uppers still lose score if they are vulched but vulchers still don't get it for 30 seconds. So then you can't claim it inspires lazy people upping at a vulched base, because their risk would still be the same. So if the 30 seconds only affected the actual vulcher by not giving him points until after the 30 seconds was over, what would you say then?

Would your argumernt against it change at that point or would you be ok with that?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 10:17:32 AM by crockett »
"strafing"