The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar

[Anaxogoras]

Unfortunately, most players base their opinion on the quality of a certain plane on how it performs from how they fly that plane.   

Player A flies a P-51D and gets shot down on the first turn after the merge by a plane Player A percieves to be of lesser quality.  This then makes Player A think, "WTF!  I see all this crap on the boards about perking the P-51D and all these people landing kills and I get killed by a Ju-87!  This plane sucks!".  Player A then walks away with the percieved notion that the P-51D is over rated from his experience.


ack-ack

That's a good example of when someone thinks others have over-rated an airplane.  It can also happen that people do over-rate an airplane.   An airplane might have a much bigger reputation than it is worth, e.g. the La-7, which is show by all of the "perk the La-7" threads.  This phenomenon is not disputed by anyone.

Maybe we're wondering whether most people base their "over-rated" opinion from flying an airplane or getting shot down by them.  I would have thought it was the latter, but you've made me think.

[thrila]

The way i see it with the spit14 is, that because it is perked, it is in terms of AH, significantly better than other late war rides.  This is what i disagree with, hence i feel it is over-rated.   The most similar aircraft to the spit14, as many of you know is the 109K.  Please feel free to disagree with any of the comparisons i make
below.   I feel a general consensus can be found with many qualities of an aircraft. 


Both are similar in speed and climb with the 109K generally faster under 25k, significantly between 15-25k. Speeds are similar between 10-15k.  Above 25k the spit14 pulls ahead in speed by ~10mph.  In the MA the 109 has the advantage, in scenarios above 25k it belongs to the spit14.


Both have average handling at middling speeds and are pretty poor at high speeds.  At low speeds the 109k has a significant advantage, being much more stable and can be thrown about pretty easily.  At low speeds the spit14 is unstable, particularly in the yaw axis and suffers from high torque. 


Without flaps the spit14 has a smaller turning circle than the 109k, however the 109k can come close with the aid of flaps (not effective as the f4u's flaps though ). 


The spit14 has superior firepower with it's twin 50cals and 20mm, but the 30mm isn't half bad with it's 1 shot capability.


It should be notedthat the 109k has twice the WEP, which is a significant advantage.  The spit14's top speed without WEP is average for a late war fighter.


There are many other qualities i'm sure, but those are just what i can list off the top of my head.  From the list above i can't see how the spit14 is significantly better than the 109k.   Jusging by the fact it is perked it is deemed so.  Therefore, i believe it to be over-rated.

[thrila]

Dick, i have flown it above 25k but i don't believe that quality warrants it being labelled an uber plane in comparison to others.  Especially when few fights are fought at that altitude.

[Anaxogoras]

Fwiw, I've stated in the past that the XIV shouldn't be perked.  But it does have better high speed control than the 109K-4, and the guns on the XIV don't require the focus of a zen master to aim properly.

[botkins]

P51

[Ack-Ack]

P51

Why is the P-51 over rated in your opinion?


ack-ack

[Lusche]

Depends on viewpoint. A new player coming from History Channel might be in for a surprise when he finds the P51 no to be the dominating uber plane of the MA's

[Ack-Ack]

Depends on viewpoint. A new player coming from History Channel might be in for a surprise when he finds the P51 no to be the dominating uber plane of the MA's

Exactly.  A player's perception of a particular plane being over rated is just that, the player's perception and not related to the actual characteristics of the plane itself.

It's the same with most complaints about a plane being under modeled/over modeled.  For example, the other day in the MA I noticed a player that was flying a Spitfire Mk IX complaining how under modeled the his Spitfire was compared to the A6M5 that just chased him and shot him down.  When I asked the Spitfire player why he thought so, he said that in no way in real life could a Zeke chase down a Spitfire Mk IX and shoot one down.  I think asked how high he was and he said he was on the deck when the Zeke bounced him from 8k. 

The Spitfire player thought that since his plane is normally faster than a Zeke then it should be faster than the Zeke in all situations, regardless if the Zeke was able to use his altitude advantage to gain the necessary energy state to chase down the lower Spitfire.  Because reality didn't mesh with the Spitfire player's perception of what his plane could do, he automatically assumed it was because his plane was under modeled and the Zeke was over modeled.


ack-ack

[Steve]

I have to agree with this.

You really can't separate the plane/pilot dynamic. As I stated in my thread with this as the topic. The hardcoded data that makes up our cartoon planes only defines the outermost limits in terms of absolutes values (climbrate, turn-rate, speed etc). The only way you could possibly compare that objectively without the player dynamic involved would be a resource like Donzo's charts or the ones HTC provides. Once you add the player to the dynamic to the equation, purely objective comparison is actually impossible. Each person is incredibly unique in every way imaginable. That uniqueness injected into the cartoon plane's hardcoded parameters creates a practically infinite combination of results across the whole spectrum of the plane's core attributes.

Just as a basic example to build on what AKAK said...

I know two fabulous P51 pilots, they both get more than I could dream of getting out of that bird. But, the catch, and the most important thing is, they both fly the P51 in a completely and utterly different fashion. They both fly it beautifully, in a way that makes perfect sense to them personally, but to an outside observer there's very little in common with either except they are both extremely efficient killers. Now,  if I am comparing the P51 to another plane like the Fw190D9,  how would I do that objectively? I would have to try to find someone in the Fw190D9 that flew with the exact same mindset and profiency as one of those P51 pilots...Given the infinite uniqueness of the human element, that's completely impossible...You can't compare planes in absolute terms beyond what could be derived statistically from an Excel spreadsheet comprised of raw data and charts...

Hear Hear Zazen! Yup yup. While I'm a believer in planes as far as numbers go, some guys just get more out of them than I could. I think of Drex or Greebo in their F6F's. I can fly it just as fast, make it turn just as tight as those guys but I'm nowhere near as effective... nor do I think spending time in one would make me so.

[NEARY]

the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt . but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety

[Lusche]

the p-51 is overated (...) but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety

 

[Steve]

the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt . but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety

I think people have high expectations for the 51.  Remember, low alt, short hops are not what the 51 was designed for but that's what the MA is all about.

[E25280]

yeah, that's it exactly.

I wish I could make up straw-man fallacies as well as you.  Will you teach me?

Good dodge of the question.

But since we are talking "fallacies" . . .

I just think the N1K is over-rated because it's not very fast and its 20mm ballistics are average.  Secondly, the airplane only excels at furballing, and is more or less helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-aircraft engagement.  The most effective N1K pilots are great shots who kill with the smallest window of opportunity; I know when I've run into them because I end up in the tower.

1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast.  Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best.  So, who ever called them lazar accurate?  Again, not over-rated.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics?    Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"?  Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation?  I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight?  If not, please enlighten me.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective?    With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks.  

So, again, over-rated it isn't.  It does many things well, especially in the MA environment.  Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft.  IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.

[Banshee7]

Good dodge of the question.

But since we are talking "fallacies" . . .
1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast.  Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best.  So, who ever called them lazar accurate?  Again, not over-rated.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics?    Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"?  Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation?  I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight?  If not, please enlighten me.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective?    With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks.  

So, again, over-rated it isn't.  It does many things well, especially in the MA environment.  Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft.  IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.

very nice E2....i believe every word

[Ack-Ack]

the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt . but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety

Again, what better evidence of a player's perception clouding what the plane is actually capable of then NEARY's reply can one get? 


ack-ack