The most over-rated aircraft in the hangar

[Anaxogoras]

Good dodge of the question.

But since we are talking "fallacies" . . .
1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast.  Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best.  So, who ever called them lazar accurate?  Again, not over-rated.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics?    Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"?  Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation?  I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight?  If not, please enlighten me.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective?    With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks.  

So, again, over-rated it isn't.  It does many things well, especially in the MA environment.  Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft.  IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.

 

A straw man fallacy is where you interpret what I say in the weakest possible way, just like you did above.  What you're accusing me of is stating falsehoods, which is something entirely different from a fallacy.

I am oh so sorry that I failed to take account of the ground attack capabilities of the N1K.  I stand corrected.

[E25280]

(Image removed from quote.)

 

A straw man fallacy is where you interpret what I say in the weakest possible way, just like you did above.  What you're accusing me of is stating falsehoods, which is something entirely different from a fallacy.

I am oh so sorry that I failed to take account of the ground attack capabilities of the N1K.  I stand corrected.

He answers with another dodge.   

[Anaxogoras]

I just think the N1K is over-rated because it's not very fast and its 20mm ballistics are average.  Secondly, the airplane only excels at furballing, and is more or less helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-aircraft engagement.  The most effective N1K pilots are great shots who kill with the smallest window of opportunity; I know when I've run into them because I end up in the tower.

Perhaps I should have added that it's in comparison to its popularity versus the weaknesses I outline above that I think the N1K is over-rated by a lot people.  Is that more clear?  It might not also merit an ENY of 5 save for the fact that so many people put themselves into a position where it's easy for a N1K to get a killing shot.  I do it now and then myself, but know where to place the blame.

Besides the ground attack comments, which I don't think are a very big deal, I'll respond to your charges.

1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast.  Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.

Sure, I suppose not.  That sounds logical, but pilot behavior in the arenas often contradicts sober rationality.  Don't we love it when we see N1K pilots push their aircraft into situations where only a faster aircraft will do?

2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best.  So, who ever called them lazar accurate?  Again, not over-rated.

The cannons are probably 50% of the reason most N1K pilots fly it, so you make my argument for me.

3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?

If you think furballing is the raison d'etre of aircraft combat simulations then you are over-rating all aircraft that excel at it when they underperform in other areas.  Personally, I think furballing has its place and can be a lot of fun, but I take a more rounded view of all the different ways that are fun to kill the enemy, e.g. ground attack, bomber intercept (N1K would be great if it weren't for speed), energy fighting, level bombing, bomber escort, etc.  Moreover, the N1K may be great at furballing, but I wouldn't be too excited if I were assigned one in FSO, for example.

3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.

Agreed.  It's a pity that it's not put to more use in these areas.

4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics?    Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"?  Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation?  I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight?  If not, please enlighten me.

Yes, basically I mean it helps to have a faster airplane to defend against attackers that will only fight on their terms.  That is, a flight of N1K's are in big trouble if they are engaged by F4U's or P-51s (insert faster plane here) that use energy fighting tactics.  Save a lucky snap shot, their opposition won't let the N1K's get close enough for the cannons to matter.  The Ki-84 is another story, and to me is superior to the N1K because it is faster, climbs better, and accelerates better; these are the more important attributes in multi-aircraft acm.

5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective?    With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks.  

When I die to a N1K pilot it is usually because I let them have a tiny snap shot and they nail it.  Short of that I don't give many opportunities for effective spray and pray shooting.  It frequently happens that a N1K pilot sprays at 800 yards out while I extend away.  Sometimes they take off an aileron or knock of a flap and I have to rtb, more frequently they miss or do superficial damage.  Unless your target has poor SA, you need to be good at snapshots in the N1K because that's all good-SA pilots will give you, and some would say they won't even give you that.

So, again, over-rated it isn't.  It does many things well, especially in the MA environment.  Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft.  IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.

I think you're entitled to your opinion... but I see so many pilots in N1K's who don't know what the heck they're doing it causes me to suspect that they believe the aircraft will make up for their pilot-skill shortcomings, when in fact we all know the silver bullet they're looking for is the Spit16.

[Stoney]

Again, what better evidence of a player's perception clouding what the plane is actually capable of then NEARY's reply can one get? 


ack-ack

You beat me to it.

Personally, I think the Hurricane II is the most overrated plane in the game.  Those that laud it use its maneuverability and firepower as a crutch.  From a performance standpoint, its a dog.  Slow roll rate, Grandma like speed and acceleration, not much for the vertical...Sure, in a given situation it will hand you your lunch.  IMHO, its nothing but a flying turret.  Those guns are like putting a Corvette engine in a Model T.  The firepower totally outclasses the aircraft they're mounted in.

Another aircraft I think is overrated for its MA assumed role is the Bf-110G2.  Personally, I think the A-20 is a much more capable aircraft, with a huge bomb load for the type, and a little something for the fight after the bombs are off.  4,000 lbs of bombs is nearly a B-17 sortie.  If the AH object damage model didn't reward cannon armed planes the way it does, the 110 would be relegated to scenarios and FSO only; trully a potential MA hangar queen.

[Furball]

I think the N1K is overrated too... nobody should fly it.  I will continue to do so, however, because i like a challenge... 

[evenhaim]

Perhaps I should have added that it's in comparison to its popularity versus the weaknesses I outline above that I think the N1K is over-rated by a lot people.  Is that more clear?  It might not also merit an ENY of 5 save for the fact that so many people put themselves into a position where it's easy for a N1K to get a killing shot.  I do it now and then myself, but know where to place the blame.

Besides the ground attack comments, which I don't think are a very big deal, I'll respond to your charges.
Sure, I suppose not.  That sounds logical, but pilot behavior in the arenas often contradicts sober rationality.  Don't we love it when we see N1K pilots push their aircraft into situations where only a faster aircraft will do?
The cannons are probably 50% of the reason most N1K pilots fly it, so you make my argument for me.
If you think furballing is the raison d'etre of aircraft combat simulations then you are over-rating all aircraft that excel at it when they underperform in other areas.  Personally, I think furballing has its place and can be a lot of fun, but I take a more rounded view of all the different ways that are fun to kill the enemy, e.g. ground attack, bomber intercept (N1K would be great if it weren't for speed), energy fighting, level bombing, bomber escort, etc.  Moreover, the N1K may be great at furballing, but I wouldn't be too excited if I were assigned one in FSO, for example.
Agreed.  It's a pity that it's not put to more use in these areas.

Yes, basically I mean it helps to have a faster airplane to defend against attackers that will only fight on their terms.  That is, a flight of N1K's are in big trouble if they are engaged by F4U's or P-51s (insert faster plane here) that use energy fighting tactics.  Save a lucky snap shot, their opposition won't let the N1K's get close enough for the cannons to matter.  The Ki-84 is another story, and to me is superior to the N1K because it is faster, climbs better, and accelerates better; these are the more important attributes in multi-aircraft acm.

When I die to a N1K pilot it is usually because I let them have a tiny snap shot and they nail it.  Short of that I don't give many opportunities for effective spray and pray shooting.  It frequently happens that a N1K pilot sprays at 800 yards out while I extend away.  Sometimes they take off an aileron or knock of a flap and I have to rtb, more frequently they miss or do superficial damage.  Unless your target has poor SA, you need to be good at snapshots in the N1K because that's all good-SA pilots will give you, and some would say they won't even give you that.

I think you're entitled to your opinion... but I see so many pilots in N1K's who don't know what the heck they're doing it causes me to suspect that they believe the aircraft will make up for their pilot-skill shortcomings, when in fact we all know the silver bullet they're looking for is the Spit16.

how is the nik overrated, 4 20mms with loads of ammo can turn like a zeke and dives pretty well for a japanese a/c, to me its one of the easiest planes to kill in..

[Saurdaukar]

Exactly.  A player's perception of a particular plane being over rated is just that, the player's perception and not related to the actual characteristics of the plane itself.

I kinda thought that was the point of the thread?  Underlined word being the key. 

The 'rating' is applied by the player based upon experience and hearsay.

Usually, youll see someone whining about uber SpixteenLa7Nik's.  IMO, you could probably take the Niki out of that list.  The La7 and the Spit16 are both bona fide threats.

Even a Niki driven by a decent stick has disadvantages which can be exploited.  While aircraft like the La7 and the Spit16 are pretty much excellent in every category, the Niki is merely average, giving it no clear single superiority over other LW AC aside from hitting power which, as it were, it worthless if you cant gain a guns solution.

I'd up a Ki84 instead of an N1k without hesitation.

[Anaxogoras]

I think the N1K is overrated too... nobody should fly it.  I will continue to do so, however, because i like a challenge... 

Haha, furball, you are deadly in the N1K.  I learned that the hard way the other day.  I have a bad habit of underestimating N1K's because so many are flown by the clueless.

[spit16nooby]

P-51s are very overrated to me I usually beat them with my 109k-4 which is better in almost every single way in my opinion. 

[Zazen13]

P-51s are very overrated to me I usually beat them with my 109k-4 which is better in almost every single way in my opinion. 

Read the plane/player dynamic stuff.

Just because you beat Ponies all day long in your K4 doesn't mean K4's are better planes than Ponies. I beat La7's all day long with my Typhoon. But, one look at Donzo's charts will show you conclusively the La7 is absolutely better in all performance areas and in some respects to a very large degree. The only reason I am successful in a Typhoon against most La7's is because they fly their La7 so badly compared to how I fly the Typhoon that they negate their inherent plane advantages relative to mine. Someone even vaguely close to my skill level in an La7 could and should easily hand me my arse other factors being equal. This is all especially true of the hugely popular planes like the La7, Pony, Niki, Spit etc. A far greater proportion of those are driven by people who just don't yet have the first foggy clue how to fight well...So, judging the plane's absolute performance based upon your results vs. them is like saying, "That arithmetic test was too easy!", but you were using a calculator...

[Masherbrum]

My statement on page 2 still stands. 

[Anaxogoras]

My statement on page 2 still stands. 

Bromide.

[Masherbrum]

Bromide.

Actually, it's funny watching you dodge question after question.   Your comebacks are now extremely predictable.    My 2nd page statement still stands.   

[Fatboy26]

FM2.............

[Oldman731]

Just like the title says, what is the most over-rated aircraft in our plane set.

I'd go with the 262.

- oldman