Waffen SS Squad?

[sethipus]

Of course it's HTC's game, and they'll do whatever they want, whatever I or anyone else may think about it, so since they've been informed of the name, I reckon the discussion here is moot.

[yanksfan]

I was just stating facts, Corky. I fully realize what alot of the front line SS troops did , which is why I don't support them as an AH squad name.

 The fact is that you could not be in the "SS" if you were not a Nazi, period. end of story.

It is a shame that some people look at the "SS" as if they were just your avg joe trying to get thru a bad situation as best they could, nothing could be further from the truth, these people were Nazi's, they were concidered by hitler to be the tip of the Nazi spear.

They were cold blooded killers, I am offended as a former soldier thet anyone would could give them a drop of honor, they had none.

[pluck]

Killing people because you hate their race - bad. Killing people because you hate their government - acceptable. Got it.

so you actually believe that war crimes are foolish and the world should just let them slide?  Because if you interevene in the best way you know how, given the technology of the time, and end up killing innocent people, you are in fact just as guilty of war crimes because innocent people died?  Forget about the intent, forget about, rape/enslavement/torture/genocide...its all the same?

[DaveJ]

 The fact is that you could not be in the "SS" if you were not a Nazi, period. end of story.

It is a shame that some people look at the "SS" as if they were just your avg joe trying to get thru a bad situation as best they could, nothing could be further from the truth, these people were Nazi's, they were concidered by hitler to be the tip of the Nazi spear.

They were cold blooded killers, I am offended as a former soldier thet anyone would could give them a drop of honor, they had none.

And I am not disagreeing with you man, I fully support what you said!

[BlauK]

The fact is that you could not be in the "SS" if you were not a Nazi, period. end of story.

And that is not true.

Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers

---

The Holocaust is kind of a side track in this discussion, since we are talking about Waffen-SS, not about the Algemeine-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#War_crimes
Of cource you may want to argue that they were all the same in SS... and all the Germans were the same, etc... maybe even all blond europeans were the same.

Lastly, about the cold blooded intention. Just for the sake of argument, what is the real difference between Evenheim's example of "unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child" and dropping the A-bomb to Hirosima and Nagasaki, or RAF bombing Hamburg and Dresden?

Both are inhumane terror acts. Both aim to demoralize the enemy so that they would not dare to attack against you anymore. The SS troops did just that. E.g. some partisans or underground resistance had killed couple of their men, thus they killed a whole town from that area.

I still claim that some Waffen-SS men did commit atrocities just as some allied bomber units did commit atrocities. BUT not all of them did!
The biggest difference is the connection Waffen-SS, as an organization, had to the despised Nazi party and to their ideology. Still that does not make every Waffen-SS soldier a Nazi.

[Bronk]

lmao @ the apologists in this thread.

[DaveJ]

And that is not true.

Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers

Yes this is true. Thousands of Ukranians and Fins were offered the chance to join the SS as the war progressed. I'm not sure what percentage of them were hardcore Nazis, however.

[saantana]

And that is not true.

Even the so much despised Wikipedia will help you over that misguided statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Waffen_SS_volunteers

---

The Holocaust is kind of a side track in this discussion, since we are talking about Waffen-SS, not about the Algemeine-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#War_crimes
Of cource you may want to argue that they were all the same in SS... and all the Germans were the same, etc... maybe even all blond europeans were the same.

Lastly, about the cold blooded intention. Just for the sake of argument, what is the real difference between Evenheim's example of "unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child" and dropping the A-bomb to Hirosima and Nagasaki, or RAF bombing Hamburg and Dresden?

Both are inhumane terror acts. Both aim to demoralize the enemy so that they would not dare to attack against you anymore. The SS troops did just that. E.g. some partisans or underground resistance had killed couple of their men, thus they killed a whole town from that area.

I still claim that some Waffen-SS men did commit atrocities just as some allied bomber units did commit atrocities. BUT not all of them did!
The biggest difference is the connection Waffen-SS, as an organization, had to the despised Nazi party and to their ideology. Still that does not make every Waffen-SS soldier a Nazi.

To even compare a bomber pilot and his crew who dropped bombs to men who could systematically shoot children, women and men alike in the back of the head and then watch them fall into a mass grave is simply, again, dillusional. I think those that say that are simply out of their mind.
Frankly, I'm surprised such opinions reign among players of this game. Some facts that you state do hold merit. For instance, I agree with you that dropping bombs on civilian populations is not acceptable. It is not genocide, however. To compare those men with Waffen SS men who did what I stated above, and using arguments such as the ones you describe above do not hold any merit with me.
They did not just, go to villages and shoot people because those people killed a few of their men. They shot them also because they were a different 'race', 'religion', or nationality. That is the definition of genocide. Not because they were at war with their government. After all, their country was already occupied.
Wars are fought, and innocent people do get caught in the crossfire. That is not genocide. Executing innocent civilians under occupation because of a different race, is genocide. Get your facts and definitions sorted out.

They were not honorable.
They should not be remembered as such.

[saantana]

So killing people because they are of a different "race" is somehow worse than killing people for other reasons?

Yes, infact I do think it's worst.
To make my point. I think John Smith executed by a member of the Waffen SS because he is jewish, or because he is the Soviet Union, or because he is catholic, whatever, is much worst than executing a prison inmate accused of first degree murder.
Maybe you should have used the term 'murder'. Civilians killed by bombs, were, killed in my opinion. SS men murdered them.
I'm sorry I just had to bite.

I'm not responding to this thread anymore. Thank you all for your opinions and I really didn't think it would turn into such a broad discussion. I have already emailed HTC about it.

[Kazan_HB]

15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian)
The Division fought on the Pomeranian Wall defences. At Podgaje, 2 February 1945, men of that division performed a war crime on Polish prisoners, burning in a barn 32 soldiers from 4th company, 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division Polish First Army tied up with a barbed wire.

[CAP1]

Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?

aaww jeeezzess christmas dude!!!!!!

i don't agree with it either, but.......


we all know the ss did horrible stuff. no excuse.

but c'mon?? words only hurt/offend you IF you let them. if you don't let them, they those very same words have 0 meaning.

 finally........since we all know HTC will ban the name, this is the wrong place. an email directy to htc would solve your problem much much more efficiently

[CAP1]

I guess you are referring to the method I have chosen to post this on the forums.
I was going to do what you suggested after I got some replies, and I posted a question of the form 'does anyone else find it offending' to make sure it isn't just myself.
If it isn't, then it might serve as a reference for any future CO's wishing to name their squad in a similar manner.

Edit: Sorry Furball you posted just before I hit submit.
To answer your post I myself do not find offensive squad names such as any of the JG units or others as such. Waffen SS is quite different however in my opinion. It almost looks like a provocation

but the problem with your theory here?  someone can and probably will find offense in pretty much anything.

[Kweassa]

but c'mon?? words only hurt/offend you IF you let them. if you don't let them, they those very same words have 0 meaning.

 So it would be okay to set a shop in the middle of New York and name it "Osama", and then "don't be offended!" to angry citizens?

[dentin]

it is never just black or white, but varying shades of gray.

One of the problems with today's society is the unwillingness of people to "make a stand". Accepting the fact that "it is never just black or white, but varying shades of gray." just adds to the problem. People need to get rid of the "varying shades".....it's either "right OR it's wrong". Remember, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" 

Even though I don't approve the Nazis or the SS-organization, I do not condemn every SS-soldier for what some of them did.

Perhaps "guilty by association" applies here? 

Then again, I also cannot see any sensible reason to use SS in connection with AH squadron names. After all, the SS units were only ground troops, and AH is a Flight sim

Exactly!

Someone else could e.g. be offended by British or American bomber squadrons, because of killing civilians - women and children - intentionally. Atrocities happened in wars, usually on both/all sides, even in the recent ones.

War is obscene! 

dentin has left the building 

[CAP1]

So it would be okay to set a shop in the middle of New York and name it "Osama", and then "don't be offended!" to angry citizens?

waaaay different situation.

this is ingame. a word on a computer screen. it can be very easily avoided.


all in all, it won't matter by monday morning though.