Waffen SS Squad?

[SkyRock]

  Spend a little time checking out the atrocities on the Eastern front. 

Enough atrocities in that area alone to let someone know how the SS worked.  9,000,000 comes to mind

[BlauK]

Read the "Valhalla's Warriors: A History of the Waffen-SS on the Eastern Front 1941-1945". Nothing new in it, but nevertheless, well researched book.

Would it prove to me that every Waffen-SS man and unit was evil and commited war crimes? I doubt it.
That is all I am saying. People should not generalize issues due to individual events.

It is always easier to put everything under one title... all Americans are this and all **** are that.

[Guppy35]

Would it prove to me that every Waffen-SS man and unit was evil and commited war crimes? I doubt it.
That is all I am saying. People should not generalize issues due to individual events.

It is always easier to put everything under one title... all Americans are this and all **** are that.

Speaking of generalizing.  What the SS stood for and the tactics it employed in a campaign to murder and terrorize countries does not eliminate those who were in the SS that did not actively participate. 

The question was is naming a squad "Waffen SS" appropriate.  The answer seems clear in my mind.  No because of what it represents.  There is no way to talk around that and try and justify it.

[2bighorn]

Would it prove to me that every Waffen-SS man and unit was evil and commited war crimes? I doubt it.
That is all I am saying. People should not generalize issues due to individual events.

Not every individual, no, but as organization yes, furthermore, atrocities committed by Waffen SS, especially on eastern front, by all means were not isolated incidents.

[BlauK]

Speaking of generalizing.  What the SS stood for and the tactics it employed in a campaign to murder and terrorize countries does not eliminate those who were in the SS that did not actively participate. 

The question was is naming a squad "Waffen SS" appropriate.  The answer seems clear in my mind.  No because of what it represents.  There is no way to talk around that and try and justify it.

I think most of us here agree that it is not a good name for a squadron. I would not really object too much though, if some GV oriented group used some carefully selected SS name.
I could e.g. see myself playing some ground war GAME in SS Freiwilligen-Battalion Nordost or SS-Division Wiking without any remorse.

It is funny how many refuse to compare or even discuss the allied atrocities, or generalizing on their organizations in this context. Had Allies lost the war (which fortunately they did not), I bet the list of war crimes might look quite different. It must be difficult to think that even one's own country has done evil deeds.

No bite on Larry Thorne yet... anyone??

[yanksfan]

I think most of us here agree that it is not a good name for a squadron. I would not really object too much though, if some GV oriented group used some carefully selected SS name.
I could e.g. see myself playing some ground war GAME in SS Freiwilligen-Battalion Nordost or SS-Division Wiking without any remorse.

It is funny how many refuse to compare or even discuss the allied atrocities, or generalizing on their organizations in this context. Had Allies lost the war (which fortunately they did not), I bet the list of war crimes might look quite different. It must be difficult to think that even one's own country has done evil deeds.

wow

[Chalenge]

I am offended whenever anyone gets offended and decides to go on the offensive against individuals.

[2bighorn]

It is funny how many refuse to compare or even discuss the allied atrocities

Because they cannot be compared. Atrocities committed by the allies were rather few and they were not part of allied ideology of the race supremacy.

It's kinda like comparison between 1st degree murderer and a guy who killed in self defense. In both cases somebody lost life, so in your opinion both should be equally guilty?

[yanksfan]

Because they cannot be compared. Atrocities committed by the allies were rather few and they were not part of allied ideology of the race supremacy.

It's kinda like comparison between 1st degree murderer and a guy who killed in self defense. In both cases somebody lost life, so in your opinion both should be equally guilty?

Forget it BH, he just won't open his eyes. Might as well be talking to the wall.

[BlauK]

   You just stole my words yanksfan.

A-bombs, Hamburg and Dresden bombings were not premeditated acts of terror. They were simply righteous self defence Now I get it. That's what those kids get for supporting (or was it suffering from) their rotten governments.

I was only hoping to open some self-righteous eyes. Tough nut to crack obviously.

How can you guys bare an ex-SS-soldier as one of your celebrated US special forces hero?   

[WMLute]

Because they cannot be compared. Atrocities committed by the allies were rather few and they were not part of allied ideology of the race supremacy.

It's kinda like comparison between 1st degree murderer and a guy who killed in self defense. In both cases somebody lost life, so in your opinion both should be equally guilty?

Actually, he has a vaild point re: the Allied fire bombing of the Axis cities.  We DID target civilians.  Heck, we killed FAR more Japanese from firebombing their cities than from the Atom bombs.  We can justify it in hindsight because of all the nasty things the Germans did, but the blood of millions of civilians are on the Allied hands.

(disclaimer: Sometimes you have to go all out and do "total war" tactics and WWII was indeed one of those times)

[saantana]

Even though you are not answering anymore, I'll point out the parts you missed.

I suppose you did not get the difference between Waffen-SS and Algemeine-SS.

Combat troops hardly had time to inspect and select people, they more likely shot them all without discrimination in those war crimes that happened.
The systematic genocide was the business of Algemeine-SS and of the concentration camp guards.

There is war also in the back areas... partisans, sabotage, etc. I dont see what difference the occupation makes to the intentionally killed/murdered civilians.

The bombings I mentioned above were not just crossfire. They were intentional operations to wipe out entire cities, and they were directed primarily against the civilian population.

Hmm.. still one of them was recently (in 2003) buried with honors at the Arlington National Cemetary in USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/us_special_forces_legend_larry_thorne

Wow.

After the war, at the Nuremberg Trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation due to their political connections to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP), and involvement in war crimes and The Holocaust, this is all except conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted from the judgment on the basis of involuntary servitude. Therefore Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to other German combat veterans who had served in the Heer, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine.[5] Waffen-SS soldiers were held in separate, more rigorous confinement by the Western Allies and were punished severely by the Soviet Union. As well, many Waffen-SS men recruited from German-occupied countries in Europe were punished by their home countries.

Many Waffen-SS members were responsible for war crimes, and the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held a criminal organization after the war by the post-war German government because there was undeniable evidence that many of its members perpetrated serious war crimes. Although some argue that the evidence in the cases of many Waffen-SS divisions is of individual rather than organisational culpability, this is unacceptable as a defence in a military unit.[who?] While formations such as Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades, though many others were involved - either in large-scale massacres or smaller scale atrocities such as the Houtman affair.

The Wormhoudt massacre (or Wormhout massacre) was an atrocity against soldiers hors de combat in World War II that occurred on Tuesday 28 May 1940 when the German Infantry Regiment Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler under the command of Sepp Dietrich, and allegedly specifically the 2nd Battalion commanded by Hauptsturmführer Wilhelm Mohnke, killed approximately 80 British prisoners of war (POWs). The murdered men were soldiers from the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment, and Royal Artillery as well as French soldiers in charge of a military depot in a nearby farm.

The Le Paradis massacre was a war crime committed by members of the 14th Company, SS Division Totenkopf, under the command of Hauptsturmführer Fritz Knöchlein. It took place on 27 May 1940, during the Battle of France, at a time when the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was attempting to retreat through the Pas-de-Calais region during the Allied evacuation from Dunkirk.

Soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Norfolk Regiment, had become isolated from their regiment. They occupied and defended a farmhouse against an attack by Waffen-SS forces in the village of Le Paradis. After running out of ammunition, the defenders surrendered to the German troops. The Germans led them across the road to a wall, and machine-gunned them. Ninety-seven British troops died. Two survived, with injuries, and hid until they were captured by German forces several days later.

Oradour-sur-Glane (Occitan: Orador de Glana) is a town and commune in the Haute-Vienne département of central-western France.

This village was destroyed on 10 June 1944, when 642 of its inhabitants were murdered by a German Waffen-SS company.

During the Second World War, the 2nd SS Division Das Reich division of the Waffen SS perpetrated a massacre of civilians in Tulle. On 9 June 1944 a large number of male civilians were rounded up by the SS. Of these, 97 were randomly selected and then hanged from lamposts and balconies in the town. Additionally, another 321 captives were sent to forced labour camps in Germany.

The Marzabotto massacre was a World War II mass murder that took place in the territory around the small village of Marzabotto in the mountainous area south of Bologna. It was the worst massacre of civilians committed in Italy during the war by Germany.
In reprisal of the local support given to the partisans and the resistance movement, between September 29 and October 5, 1944, soldiers of the 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, led by SS-Sturmbannführer Walter Reder, systematically killed hundreds of people in Marzabotto and in the adjacent Grizzana Morandi and Monzuno, in the area of the massif of Monte Sole, part of the Apennine range, in the province of Bologna.

Some confusion regarding the number of victims arose during the years: some sources report up to 1,830 victims, others estimate 955 people killed.

The Malmedy massacre refers to a war crime in which about 90 unarmed American prisoners of war were executed by their German captors. The massacre was committed on December 17, 1944 by Kampfgruppe Peiper (part of the 1st SS Panzer Division), a German combat unit, during the Battle of the Bulge.

This massacre, as well as others committed by the same unit the same day and on the following days, was the subject of a trial during the Dachau Trials of 1946.

The Fosse Ardeatine massacre (Italian: Eccidio delle Fosse Ardeatine) was a mass execution carried out in Rome on 24 March 1944 by Nazi German occupation troops during the Second World War as a reprisal for a partisan attack conducted on the previous day in central Rome.
In fact, by error, a total of three hundred thirty-five Italian hostages were taken, composed of civilians (including Jews from the local community) who were casually picked up on the city streets, Italian prisoners of war (up to General rank), previously captured partisans and some inmates from Roman prisons. The massacre was perpetrated without prior public notice in what was then a little-frequented rural suburb of the city, inside the tunnels of the disused quarries of pozzolana, near Via Ardeatina (Italian: Cave Ardeatine).

On 24 March, led by SS officers Erich Priebke and Karl Hass, the victims were transported to the Ardeatine caves and then, in groups of five, were put to death inside the caves.

The Distomo massacre (Greek: Η σφαγή τού Διστόμου; German: Massaker von Distomo or Distomo-Massaker) was a Nazi war crime perpetrated by members of the Waffen-SS in the village of Distomo, Greece, during the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II.

On June 10, 1944, over two hours, Waffen-SS troops of the 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division went door to door and massacred Greek civilians, reportedly in revenge for a partisan attack. A total of 218 men, women and children were killed.[1] According to survivors, SS forces "bayoneted babies in their cribs, stabbed pregnant women, and beheaded the village priest."[2]

Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre was a World War II atrocity in the village of Sant'Anna di Stazzema, Italy.

On August 12, 1944, retreating SS-men of the II Battallion of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 35 of 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Anton Galler, rounded up 560 villagers and refugees — mostly women, children and older men — shot them and then burned their bodies.

Ardenne Abbey, or "l'Abbaye d'Ardenne", is the site of a Premonstratensian monastery in Saint-Germain-la-Blanche-Herbe, near Caen, France containing a chapel built in 1121 and other medieval buildings.
In June 1944, during the Battle of Normandy, Ardenne Abbey was the location of the headquarters of SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 25, commanded by SS-Standartenführer Kurt Meyer. On June 7, eighteen captured Canadian soldiers of The North Nova Scotia Highlanders and the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment (the Sherbrooke Fusiliers) were taken to the abbey and killed by the Hitler Youth 12th SS Panzer Division. The remains of the soldiers were moved to the Bény-sur-Mer Canadian War Cemetery, along with those of other soldiers killed in the early stages of the Battle of Normandy.

I sir do not believe I missed anything. Indeed, I think it is you who is confused, following the apologist line of argument.
These quotes do not include the eastern front.

[saantana]

You have made several statements, which I will address one by one.

1-I suppose you did not get the difference between Waffen-SS and Algemeine-SS.
Yes I did, and still do. I believe it is you who are confused.

2-Combat troops hardly had time to inspect and select people, they more likely shot them all without discrimination in those war crimes that happened.
False. Actually, I find this statement most disturbing. Indeed I think you crossed the line and that statement is just bad taste.

3-The systematic genocide was the business of Algemeine-SS and of the concentration camp guards.
False. The units you mention took part, yes. But Waffen SS units were involved in systematic genocide and war crimes also.

4-There is war also in the back areas... partisans, sabotage, etc. I dont see what difference the occupation makes to the intentionally killed/murdered civilians.
The unability to comprehend the difference is your problem, not mine.

5-The bombings I mentioned above were not just crossfire. They were intentional operations to wipe out entire cities, and they were directed primarily against the civilian population.
True. However, again, saying the attrocities mentioned above can be compared to this is simply dillusional. I have tried to explain to you several times why this is the case.

You are entitled to your opinion. However do not state false information and accusations that I do not 'understand', or somehow 'do not comprehend' where I differ from your line of thinking.

[iaqmya]

The organinational name of the "SS", regardless of the precurser, denotes nothing but evil. A great war was fought, and many of our forefathers, fathers, uncles, mothers, sisters, brothers and aunts died as a result. 

Just the term "SS" brings up such dark thoughts and ideas of the great suffering of many, many innocent peoples who were murdered because of their birth or their faith, that it is almost unbearable to think of it without great emotion.

To me, it is no different than using as a squadron name that of of "alkida" "binladan" or any other unit designation which denotes the current name of of some extremist organization which looks to destory any people because of their beliefs, country of origin, or belief that "all men are crated equal", and that they have the "right to pursue freedom, life and happiness, equality and prosperity".

Let not their life be sacraficed in vain.

[Guppy35]

  You just stole my words yanksfan.

A-bombs, Hamburg and Dresden bombings were not premeditated acts of terror. They were simply righteous self defence Now I get it. That's what those kids get for supporting (or was it suffering from) their rotten governments.

I was only hoping to open some self-righteous eyes. Tough nut to crack obviously.

How can you guys bare an ex-SS-soldier as one of your celebrated US special forces hero?   

Just out of curiousity, who started it?  Who used area bombing as a weapon of terror in Guernica, and Holland not to mention London, Conventry etc. 

Last I saw it was an Allied leader who took Hitler at his word and believed in "peace in our time".

Seems to me that old Dolf and company got it back in spades for what they started.  I don't recall the Allies looking for 'living room", or trying to exterminate a race.  Total war is what it is.  That doesn't include genocide etc.

That you defend the Waffen SS at all is kind of a scary thing to see.  You keep wanting to make this about individual soldiers.  It isn't.  It's about an organization that stood for evil