Author Topic: Waffen SS Squad?  (Read 11931 times)

Offline WMLute

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2008, 08:56:32 PM »
(with much thanks to the book Flyboys)

"In the summer of 1945, the army air force issued an astonishing document.  It was a map of Japan with the cities listed that General LeMay had scorched.  It detailed the percentage of each city burned and compared each city in size to an American city.

Here's a sampling:

Kawasaki 35%  = Portland
Shimizu 42%  = San Jose
Hiratsuka 46%  = Battle Creek
Toyohashi 67%  = Tulsa
Hammatsu 60%  = Hartford
Kofu 78%  = South Bend
Hitachi 72%  = Little Rock
Tokyo 40%  = New York
Yokohama 57% = Cleveland
Chiba 41%  = Savannah
Nagoya 40%  = Los Angeles
Gifu 69% = Des Moins
Takahatsu 67%  = Knoxville
Himeji 49%  = Peoria
Kobe 55%  = Baltimore
Osaka 35%  = Chicago
Shimonoseki 37%  =San Diego
Moji 24%  = Spokane
Nagaoka 55% = Madison

The percenteges refer not to area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash.  This wasn't artillery damage in which one wall crumbled and the family huddled in another room.  These percentages referred to wastelands - flat, desolate ash deserts."




Bear in mind that this was before the Aug. drop of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and we continued to fire bomb Japan.  We ended up destroying @ 20% of the housing in Japan and close to 15,000,000 Japanese civilians were rendered homeless.

I look at the above damage %'s and try to imagine what we did in Japan.  We ended up destroying 51% of Tokyo and I try to imagine over half of New York City being burned to ash.  57% of Cleveland gone.  I am staggered by those percenteges.

Granted, we DID drop leaflets and warn the Japanese civilians, but I know that I wouldn't want to be the person that authorized those air raids over Japan.

(this wiki article shows the % destroyed of all the various cities in Japan from our bombing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 08:59:27 PM by WMLute »
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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2008, 09:10:41 PM »
I actually find it quite distasteful to equate, in anyway, what was done to the Jews to the bombings of civilians by the allies.


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Offline AAolds

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2008, 09:13:17 PM »
I actually find it quite distasteful to equate, in anyway, what was done to the Jews to the bombings of civilians by the allies.



Well, you dont have to like the equation.  Fact remain, someone made a choice and people died as a result of it.
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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2008, 09:16:48 PM »
Well, you dont have to like the equation.  Fact remain, someone made a choice and people died as a result of it.

Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation.  I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people.  I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible.  On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".


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Offline JHerne

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2008, 09:17:29 PM »
Guys,

Some things have more impact on people than others.

War is an evil, cruel business, ask anyone who's ever been involved in war and they'll tell you straight up.

This planet has extreme diversity - cultural, political, idealogical, and religious. In a perfect world, everyone would play nice and we'd all hold everyone else's ideals, culture, politics, and religion with equal regard. Unfortunately, that's not the case, and we start wars to solve those differences, be it 'good wars' or 'bad wars'. I will let you look back on history and determine which were good and which were bad.

In each of those wars, there are winners, losers, and countless who suffer in one way, shape, or form. In times of war, people, including civilians, die. People dying in POW or concentration camps suffer the same fate as people who die in fire raids, from roadside bombs, or any other variety of senseless killing that we, as humans, do. That's not to say that any one is worse than any other - they are all equally terrible. But the end result, sadly, is that people die, both combatants and civilians, innocent and guilty.

We can look back on history and cite hundreds of examples of the lingering feelings people have towards their opponents...at one time, we hated the British, the Germans, the Italians, the Japanese, and now they're allies. At one time the Russians hated the Japanese, the French hated the British, the Spanish hated the French AND the English. And now, we get along, for the most part.

There is a fine line between being a military historian/enthusiast and being a war-monger, especially in the eyes of individuals who do not hold the same interests as you.

As a student of military history, I am fascinated by the equipment, the technology, and the art of war, but I abhor killing and violence. Yes, they tend to go hand-in-hand, but the beauty of being a historian is that you study the past in an effort to educate the present, to preserve the future.

This is game...no one gets killed, maimed, or scarred emotionally like actual soldiers and civilians do in time of war. When we auger in with one wing shot off, we respawn and start over...our next of kin doesn't get a telegram or a visit from an Army chaplain.

During times of war, every country can be accused of doing something that's unjust, be it an atomic bomb, fire bombing, killing civilans, genocide, or any number of things that we as a culture have deemed outside of the rules of gentlemanly combat.

Glorifying those people that perpetrated those crimes does no one any good, in fact, it brings a negative light onto all of us, even those of us who simply like to fly virtual airplanes and be armchair generals.

I hope that people will read this and understand that I'm not trying to be political, the moral majority, or anything like that. I'm hoping that people will read this and understand that everything we do, either as a nation or a single individual, has an effect on someone, somewhere. It could be an all-out war fought by nations, or it could be acting like a complete arse here on the forum and insulting someone, that causes someone else to be hurt, offended, or belittled.

This is HTC's show. They make the rules, we only rent space here. It's not a democracy, it's an autonomy, and its there's and there's alone.

Being obnoxious, arrogant, or just plain ignorant, serves no one. Making enemies doesn't make you a better person, neither does being a troll, or feeding the trolls. Everyone is a tough-guy when he's behind a keyboard and anonymous. But one of these days, we're going to hear about a squeeker-troll somewhere ticking off the wrong person, and it's going to be all over the news. Think about it...imagine what could happen if you get the wrong person mad at you.

Ok, I'm off my soap-box. Hope I didn't tick anyone off. Chances are I did...

Jeff

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Offline AAolds

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2008, 09:20:25 PM »
Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation.  I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people.  I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible.  On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".



Philosophical Question?   What is worse.  The bad man who kills people or the good man who unintentionally kills "innocent" people in a bid to defeat the bad man?

The pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 09:23:15 PM by AAolds »
The AArch AAngelz is its own country, we owe loyalty only unto ourselves and those we fly with at the moment.---AAolds AArch AAngelz XO.

I love to GV and do Jabo missions vs GVs, get used to it.  Being good at one helps in the other.

Offline JHerne

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2008, 09:21:02 PM »
The pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.

AMEN :salute
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2008, 09:22:44 PM »
Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation.  I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people.  I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible.  On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".

Ever read Eichmann in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt?
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2008, 09:25:58 PM »
Philosophical Question?   What is worse.  The bad man who kills people or the good man who unintentionally kills "innocent" people in a bid to defeat the bad man?

The pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
The good man was not unintentionally killing innocent people to defeat the bad man. It was quite intentional.
On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".
Of course it is from your POV. And to a good portion of the German population of the time, that viewpoint is probably vice-versa.

Offline Shifty

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #144 on: August 03, 2008, 09:37:34 PM »
(with much thanks to the book Flyboys)

"In the summer of 1945, the army air force issued an astonishing document.  It was a map of Japan with the cities listed that General LeMay had scorched.  It detailed the percentage of each city burned and compared each city in size to an American city.

Here's a sampling:

Kawasaki 35%  = Portland
Shimizu 42%  = San Jose
Hiratsuka 46%  = Battle Creek
Toyohashi 67%  = Tulsa
Hammatsu 60%  = Hartford
Kofu 78%  = South Bend
Hitachi 72%  = Little Rock
Tokyo 40%  = New York
Yokohama 57% = Cleveland
Chiba 41%  = Savannah
Nagoya 40%  = Los Angeles
Gifu 69% = Des Moins
Takahatsu 67%  = Knoxville
Himeji 49%  = Peoria
Kobe 55%  = Baltimore
Osaka 35%  = Chicago
Shimonoseki 37%  =San Diego
Moji 24%  = Spokane
Nagaoka 55% = Madison

The percenteges refer not to area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash.  This wasn't artillery damage in which one wall crumbled and the family huddled in another room.  These percentages referred to wastelands - flat, desolate ash deserts."




Bear in mind that this was before the Aug. drop of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and we continued to fire bomb Japan.  We ended up destroying @ 20% of the housing in Japan and close to 15,000,000 Japanese civilians were rendered homeless.

I look at the above damage %'s and try to imagine what we did in Japan.  We ended up destroying 51% of Tokyo and I try to imagine over half of New York City being burned to ash.  57% of Cleveland gone.  I am staggered by those percenteges.

Granted, we DID drop leaflets and warn the Japanese civilians, but I know that I wouldn't want to be the person that authorized those air raids over Japan.

(this wiki article shows the % destroyed of all the various cities in Japan from our bombing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan

The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.

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Offline Motherland

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #145 on: August 03, 2008, 09:39:20 PM »
The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.
And the Japanese citizens, who, do to the fact that Japan was a monarchy had absolutely no push in the matter, should have payed for it?

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #146 on: August 03, 2008, 09:42:29 PM »
And the Japanese citizens, who, do to the fact that Japan was a monarchy had absolutely no push in the matter, should have payed for it?

Interesting point.  So, we either had to surrender, or land a group of crack commandos to assassinate the Emperor and his henchmen.

 - oldman

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #147 on: August 03, 2008, 09:46:45 PM »
Well, I think that the motivations should be part of the equation.  I don't believe that the commanders who ordered bombing civilian areas were "evil" people.  I believe that they were attempting to end a bloody war as quickly as possible.  On the other side of that, what was done to the Jews by the Nazis is difficult to view as anything other then "evil".


LeMay was an evil puke.

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Offline Motherland

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #148 on: August 03, 2008, 09:51:43 PM »
Interesting point.  So, we either had to surrender, or land a group of crack commandos to assassinate the Emperor and his henchmen.

 - oldman
I never condemned the actions taken against the Empire of Japan to defeat it. However, I think the stance that we 'punished' it by killing innocent civilians is... wrong.

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #149 on: August 03, 2008, 09:56:28 PM »
(with much thanks to the book Flyboys)

"In the summer of 1945, the army air force issued an astonishing document.  It was a map of Japan with the cities listed that General LeMay had scorched.  It detailed the percentage of each city burned and compared each city in size to an American city.

Here's a sampling:

Kawasaki 35%  = Portland
Shimizu 42%  = San Jose
Hiratsuka 46%  = Battle Creek
Toyohashi 67%  = Tulsa
Hammatsu 60%  = Hartford
Kofu 78%  = South Bend
Hitachi 72%  = Little Rock
Tokyo 40%  = New York
Yokohama 57% = Cleveland
Chiba 41%  = Savannah
Nagoya 40%  = Los Angeles
Gifu 69% = Des Moins
Takahatsu 67%  = Knoxville
Himeji 49%  = Peoria
Kobe 55%  = Baltimore
Osaka 35%  = Chicago
Shimonoseki 37%  =San Diego
Moji 24%  = Spokane
Nagaoka 55% = Madison

The percenteges refer not to area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash.  This wasn't artillery damage in which one wall crumbled and the family huddled in another room.  These percentages referred to wastelands - flat, desolate ash deserts."




Bear in mind that this was before the Aug. drop of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and we continued to fire bomb Japan.  We ended up destroying @ 20% of the housing in Japan and close to 15,000,000 Japanese civilians were rendered homeless.

I look at the above damage %'s and try to imagine what we did in Japan.  We ended up destroying 51% of Tokyo and I try to imagine over half of New York City being burned to ash.  57% of Cleveland gone.  I am staggered by those percenteges.

Granted, we DID drop leaflets and warn the Japanese civilians, but I know that I wouldn't want to be the person that authorized those air raids over Japan.

(this wiki article shows the % destroyed of all the various cities in Japan from our bombing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan

Actually, there were several cities that were untouched.   This was deliberate, so that the US would know how much a city would be affected by an Atomic bomb.   

"Last Great Victory" goes into more detail than Flyboys did.   Much more and it chronicles every day from V-E Day to V-J Day and is a damn good read. 
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