Low-speed F4U

[Anaxogoras]

Accurate or not, the low speed handling of the F4U is a headache for anyone facing the wrong end of it.  Some of you advanced F4U sticks do a little trick where you out-turn a faster attacker (no big deal), and when the attacker goes into a high-yo-yo you reverse in the vertical at about 100ias guns blazing before the attacker gets his nose around.  It's an amazing way to neutralize an attacker's energy advantage, and so it always makes me cautious about trying to trade energy for angles against a good F4U pilot.  Fwiw, I don't know of any other aircraft in the game that can pull the same maneuver so well.

[Delirium]

Here are the links from a recent post I made, I used some of the most knowledgeable people in AH, to quote.

It isn't the gear that makes the thing a ufo, its the low speed handling.

Ok, I like the F4U very much, but it is entirely too stable at low speeds. More so than the F6F, which set the standard for carrier fighter stability around the boat.  You can fly it down to 60 mph, nose high and cob the power with not a hint of instability. Historically, it's wrong, period. I've discussed this with a gentleman who flew the F4U-4 and F4U-5. When I described the low-speed handling behavior he wrote back and said, "if I had attempted what you described, I wouldn't be here to discuss it with you."

In a discussion with a local FG-1D owner, he described low speed, high power handling as "like a fat girl on a surfboard."

As far as I can remember, the F4U was always good with flaps out. After the drag model update it went from just good to absolutely ridiculous. Ditto for the 109s to lesser degree.

Planes that suffered from the drag model update include the Ki-61 and P-51 to name the most obvious.

Now clearly, the FM is a constantly evolving creature. Thus, we can expect changes and tweaks as the game move forward.

My regards,

Widewing

There was a warbird pilot who owned an F4U and flew AH...I was talking to him and he'd just sold his F4U. I asked him why and he said he was scared every time he flew it. He called it totally unforgiving of any error on takeoff or landing....

All the people that I know that fly the Corsair say keep it fast.  Don't screw around low and slow, and don't you dare stall it.

[Saurdaukar]

One thing that seems odd given their RL reputations is that in AH the F4U's low speed stability is better than the F6F's.

Need to disagree.  While the F4U's nasty stall has been neutered, the F6 is, IMO, one of the most stable planes in the set.

[mef4ud]

I for one have never understood the whole "F4U gear increasing its performance" thing.  When I drop it, it slows me down.  That's about all I notice.  My understanding is that that's what it's supposed to do...  What effect is it rumored to have?

I do admit though, that I never use it while fighting so I could be missing something.  In about 1 fight out of 500 I'll use it as a last-ditch effort to prevent an overshoot, but otherwise I don't even give it a second thought until it's time to land.

We have had many, many pages of writing about the F4U's low speed handling.  Has anything conclusive come from it?  Something that HTC could/would/should use to adjust the flight model?  Would it be limited to the F4U?  Or a basic change to the way lift/drag or whatever effects everyone?  Is the "problem" limited to the F4U series?  Do Yaks, Spits, 109's or whatever fly 100% correct in all respects?  Is it possible that they aren't correct either?  Or even as correct as the F4U for that matter?  Maybe they're not quite right either, but the witch hunt hasn't progressed to them yet?

I'm NOT defending the way the F4U or any other plane is modeled.  I can't, as I simply don't know.  Having seen many arguments from both "sides", I still stay neutral, as they both have good, valid points.  And truthfully I don't care all that much.  I'd only quit flying the F4U if it was removed from the game.  And if they did I'd probably leave the game, as none of the other planes spark all that much interest from me.  Any flight model change I'd simply adjust to.  I'd like all the models to be as accurate as possible, but I think they still need to be flyable for average "Joes" off the street.  We "know" there are certain concessions made to reality as it is- throttle management, combat trim, etc...  Are there others we aren't so sure about?

MtnMan

Amen to that brother!

[Widewing]

Need to disagree.  While the F4U's nasty stall has been neutered, the F6 is, IMO, one of the most stable planes in the set.

At low speed (under 150 mph), high AoA, the F6F-5 suffers from a roll axis instability that results in a snap roll to the left. Under the same circumstances the F4Us do not suffer this issue. I discovered this dueling the top F4U pilots in the game at the time. It made following their pitch-up maneuver very dicey. I figured a work-around that compensates for this behavior, and I can handle just about anyone in an F4U as a result. Nonetheless, the Corsair is more stable at the limit when using flaps. The Hellcat can defeat the F4U-1, -1A and -1D by bleeding off their E using the F6F's superior vertical performance (getting the nose higher than the F4U can). For example, Co-E (below 150 mph), the F6F can get better vertical displacement. However, you must recognize when you've reached the limit and ease off the stick ever-so-slightly. If you don't, the resulting snap roll will result in squandering any advantage built and even giving the F4U a shot. It's not that the F6F has a FM flaw, it's that the F4U lacks the basic instability historically attributed to the type.

In a constant horizontal turn on the deck (basic lufbery), the F4Us (except the -1C) turn smaller circles than the F6F can manage. However, this is offset by the F6F being able to get the nose higher and/or its slightly better turn rate. In the real world, a nose high, power off stall in an F4U would result in falling off on the left wing. Should the pilot firewall the throttle, the aircraft would roll inverted and not have enough aileron or rudder authority to prevent it. In the game, you can cob the power without fear.

My regards,

Widewing

[Gixer]

With the flight model and gamey landing gear tactics. F4Us especially the perk versions have become priority targets, even over dweebfires and other top tier rides. If I only get one kill in a furball I'll try make sure it's the F4U over anything else. And if I see a F4U against a friendly using landing gear and other gamey tricks to gain the advantage it will be one of the few instances where I will happily pick them off without a second thought.


And mtnman,

while you might only use landing gear for 1 in 500 fights. Flying against F4Us  I come across landing gear being used by F4U sticks in over half the engagements I have, either to cause an overshoot or more often the case to prevent themselves from over shooting my Yak in rolls. And that includes some well known F4U sticks perk version or not.


<S>...-Gixer

[Serenity]

With the flight model and gamey landing gear tactics. F4Us especially the perk versions have become priority targets, even over dweebfires and other top tier rides. If I only get one kill in a furball I'll try make sure it's the F4U over anything else. And if I see a F4U against a friendly using landing gear and other gamey tricks to gain the advantage it will be one of the few instances where I will happily pick them off without a second thought.

Me likey shoot the corsair. Its definately a priority target for me.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

First to be targeted or not, the aircraft has issues.

[DoNKeY]

With the flight model and gamey landing gear tactics. F4Us especially the perk versions have become priority targets, even over dweebfires and other top tier rides. If I only get one kill in a furball I'll try make sure it's the F4U over anything else. And if I see a F4U against a friendly using landing gear and other gamey tricks to gain the advantage it will be one of the few instances where I will happily pick them off without a second thought.


And mtnman,

while you might only use landing gear for 1 in 500 fights. Flying against F4Us  I come across landing gear being used by F4U sticks in over half the engagements I have, either to cause an overshoot or more often the case to prevent themselves from over shooting my Yak in rolls. And that includes some well known F4U sticks perk version or not.


<S>...-Gixer

How exactly is an F4U using its landing gear in a fight 'gamey' to you?

[Vudak]

How exactly is an F4U using its landing gear in a fight 'gamey' to you?

Unless it's using the gear to bounce off the ground, I wonder this as well?

[Gixer]

How exactly is an F4U using its landing gear in a fight 'gamey' to you?

Because for the F4U with it's uber flaps and flight model performance makes the aircraft decelerate like Maverics F14 with an unrealistic ability to maintain zeke like performance at stupidly low speeds.


<S>...-Gixer

[bozon]

What amazes me is the F4U's ability to pull the nose up starting at very low speeds and do a kind of back flip at 60 mph. This is in part a general strange thing about all FM in AH where the elevator is not loosing authority at stall speeds and so planes can pitch up into the stall at almost any speed. Coupled with the F4U flaps it allows the F4U to pitch up at speeds close to stall, either to shoot at someone zooming over it or switch direction from up to down without any displacement. Couple that with the F4u-4 gentle-torque high-power and you got a winner.

[SgtPappy]

The controversy surrounding the F4U's handling is one thing but think about it.. the gear used by some of our cartoon pilots is no more gamey than the flaps used on Spitfires. In fact, it wasn't too common for P-38 pilots to drop full flaps, though there are likely instances.

The gear on the F4U Corsair actually had a setting to drop just the main gear (tailwheel doors break off) during dive-bombing runs. Pilots actually used the gear initially as a speed brake but then the option for this speed brake was enabled in later F4U-1A's and subsequent models due to the high dive speeds encountered during bomb runs. So it actually would be possible to drop them to cause an overshoot.

The problem in this is that it would be suicidal for a Corsair pilot to get slow with flaps/gear in combat against the Japanese because of the obvious reasons. In our game, we have the advantage of stuff like combat trim, seemingly lower torque, a lot less engine management and the ability to up again and again. They didn't have the option.

[evenhaim]

The controversy surrounding the F4U's handling is one thing but think about it.. the gear used by some of our cartoon pilots is no more gamey than the flaps used on Spitfires. In fact, it wasn't too common for P-38 pilots to drop full flaps, though there are likely instances.

The gear on the F4U Corsair actually had a setting to drop just the main gear (tailwheel doors break off) during dive-bombing runs. Pilots actually used the gear initially as a speed brake but then the option for this speed brake was enabled in later F4U-1A's and subsequent models due to the high dive speeds encountered during bomb runs. So it actually would be possible to drop them to cause an overshoot.

The problem in this is that it would be suicidal for a Corsair pilot to get slow with flaps/gear in combat against the Japanese because of the obvious reasons. In our game, we have the advantage of stuff like combat trim, seemingly lower torque, a lot less engine management and the ability to up again and again. They didn't have the option.

You saying you would drop gear? cause no matter what that amounts to lame in my book seeing as the hog already has double the tricks of any other a/c.

[Saxman]

I've said this before, but there's only two circumstances I drop my gear in combat: Dive-bombing runs, and if I'm making any sort of extended dive onto a con to keep my approach speed manageable (primarily on initial dives into a fight if I have a particularly large starting altitude advantage). Typically I retract them again at 1500yds out so I can gain a few seconds of acceleration that can throw off the timing of his break (think about it: You spot a Corsair diving on your six, approaching steadily at about 100-150mph rate of closure. You're watching the counter click down ready to break, then all the sudden he's jumped up 250mph closure and he's on you before you can execute your evasive). However if I'm diving into a big cloud of red, it's gear up WEP all the way in.

The Corsair is too vulnerable once she's slow because it can take her so long to build her speed back up. The absolute WORST place to be in a big furball is in a Corsair wallowing around low and slow on the deck. You can't run away, and no matter what advantage flaps give you in a prolonged turning fight the Corsair's turn rate is just too poor and her vertical at low speeds is insufficient. When I'm fighting against another Corsair and I see those gear come out I know I've got him. He's either desperate or inexperienced, and is blowing all his E thinking it will give him a shot. Meanwhile I'm holding mine at about 250mph and extending up and away from him.