Author Topic: top ten  (Read 2217 times)

Offline angelsandair

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Re: top ten
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2008, 07:58:19 PM »
I've read that all Soviet squadrons do this. One way or another, Soviet kill claims were greatly exaggerated.
I've also seen Rechkalov placed over Pokryshkin.

Its very debated, Rechkalov (IIRC) was a squadie and P-39 pilot just like Pokryshkin. The real debate is who is actually #1. I'm gonna go see if I can dig up any info on either of them regarding kills.
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Motherland

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Re: top ten
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2008, 08:02:59 PM »
BTW the highest scoring non-German ace was a Finnish 109 pilot. I forget his name. Lemme find it real quick...
Ilmari Juutilainen, 58 of his 94 victories were scored in the Bf.109.

Offline angelsandair

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Re: top ten
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2008, 08:05:28 PM »
BTW the highest scoring non-German ace was a Finnish 109 pilot. I forget his name. Lemme find it real quick...
Ilmari Juutilainen, 58 of his 94 victories were scored in the Bf.109.

Didn't the finns fight the Russians in WW2? But werent on the Axis side? I was reading something about a pilot or Tank Commander from Finland who actually was charged for treason or something after the war for something really bogus....
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline angelsandair

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Re: top ten
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2008, 08:07:19 PM »
Sorry for the double post, but I found the page of his score off the sometimes (actually frequent wikipedia, but I couldn't find anything else)

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1941: 14 confirmed victories (plus several unconfirmed)


06.22.41 - 'friendly' kill, Su-2; killed the plane's navigator
06.23.41 - Bf-109E
06.24.41 - Bf-109E
reconnaissance flight, shot down two Hs-126
fought with four Bf-109s, shot down 1 Bf-109
fought a group of Ju-88s and Bf-109s, shot down 1 Ju-88
escorted SB-2 bombers, shot down Bf-109
ground attack against enemy airfield, destroyed Bf-109 on the ground
ground attack against Kishinev airfield, destroyed Ju-87 on the ground
escorted SB-2s, shot down 1 Bf-109 personally and one Bf-109 in group;
fought with four Bf-109s, shot down 1 Bf-109
attacked reconnaissance Ju-88, shot up but unable to shoot down due to problems with armament
fought 3 Ju-88s, shot down one by air-to-ground rockets (not officially confirmed), officially credited for the second
reconnaissance flight, shot down Hs-126
fought four Ju-88s, shot down one
escorted SB-2s, shot down one Bf-109
reconnaissance flight, shot down one Bf-109
1942: 7 confirmed victories


January and February - reconnaissance flights only, no air combat
early March - shot down Hs-126
special reconnaissance missions flying a captured Bf-109 in German markings
May - escort mission, shot down one Bf-109 and damaged another
reconnaissance mission, shot down Bf-110
escorted Il-2s, shot down Bf-109
escorted Il-2s, shot down Bf-109
fought a group of Bf-109s, shot down one
fought a group of Ju-88s, shot down one
1943: 55 confirmed victories
Before April 17

fought a group of Bf-109s, shot down one
shot down Bf-109 and Ju-88
April 11
four Bf-109s in a single engagement
another sortie, shot down Ju-87
third sortie, shot down Ju-88
April 12(?) - three Bf-109s in two engagements
three Ju-87s in a single engagement
one Bf-109
Between April 18 and April 21

escorted Pe-2s, shot down Bf-109, shot up FW-190
escorted Pe-2s, shot down Bf-109
April 21 - escorted Il-2s, shot down Bf-109
escorted Pe-2s, shot down FW-190
escorted Pe-2s, shot down Bf-109
April 29 - intercepted Ju-87s, shot down five
fought group of Ju-87s and Bf-109s, shot down two Ju-87s
Between May 5 and May 10

one Bf-109
intercepted group of Ju-88s, shot down 3, 2 confirmed (1 personal and 1 group)
Before the end of May

escorted Pe-2s, shot down Bf-109;
intercepted Bf-109s, shot down 1
intercepted Bf-109s, shot down 1
intercepted Bf-109s, shot down 1
intercepted Bf-109s, shot down 2
May 29 - shot down two Ju-88s
June, shot down one Bf-109, scored three other victories
Mid August - transferred to new area; Airacobras often attacked by other Soviet pilots as the unfamiliar type looks like the Bf-109

shot down Ju-88
shot down reconnaissance Ju-88 at altitude above 8,000 m (26,000 ft)
August 21, shot down two Ju-87s, shot up one Bf-109
one Ju-88
one Ju-87
September 21 - three Ju-88s shot down, two confirmed
reconnaissance Ju-88
one Ju-87
five unescorted Ju-52s
1944: 4+ confirmed victories {+1 reported shot down}

May 7 - a Romanian He-111H-6 No. 48 {Observer killed} See [[1]]
July 16 - fought group of Ju-87s and Hs-129s, shot down three Ju-87s and one Hs-129
1945: 1+ confirmed victories

mid-January - shot down one Ju-87
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline 442w30

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Re: top ten
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2008, 10:03:18 PM »
A small correction.  R.R.S. Tuck; RAF was credited with a 30th kill after a Me109 was discovered in France and when excavated found to be one that he had claimed to have put the hurt on. 

For the thread starter:  He flew the Spit I, then the Hurri I, and finally was shot down by flak over France in a Spit V
Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time

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Offline Steve

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Re: top ten
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2008, 03:34:22 AM »
A small correction.  R.R.S. Tuck; RAF was credited with a 30th kill after a Me109 was discovered in France and when excavated found to be one that he had claimed to have put the hurt on. 

For the thread starter:  He flew the Spit I, then the Hurri I, and finally was shot down by flak over France in a Spit V

I read his book... loved it.
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Offline Grendel

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Re: top ten
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2008, 09:35:09 AM »
Didn't the finns fight the Russians in WW2? But werent on the Axis side?

Russians twice, Germans once. Three wars while the others were satisfied with just one.

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: top ten
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2008, 09:44:59 AM »
McCampbell is usually the "forgotten one".   Sure folks are quick to name Bong, Boyington, Vraciu, Gay and others.   But this badass was keeping score with pencil hash marks on the dashboard of his F6F-5, while downing 9 in one day during the Marianas Turkey Shoot.   He had already shot 7 in day four months prior.   He is the only American to repeat this.   

Also note that when he landed the 9 kills, he literally had 2 rounds of .50 cal left.   If you ever come across "McCampbell's Heroes", get it.   I read it for the first time 21 years ago in the 8th grade.   I've read it a few times since as it a good narrative.   

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Offline hammer

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Re: top ten
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2008, 09:54:03 AM »
.... Even at that point Luftwaffe was lacking in manpower, especially wiith the upcoming invasion of Russia, Also there already was a shortage of fuel and planes even in that early stage.
Perhaps more importantly, the priority at that point in the war was still on bombers. Hitler was convinced this was the way to go. He saw fighters as defensive. In The First and The Last, Adolf Galland makes it clear he is very bitter about this.

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Offline 442w30

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Re: top ten
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2008, 10:44:51 AM »
I read his book... loved it.

I agree. 

The greatest aces cannot be scored merely by aircraft shot down.  Tuck is one of those guys that would have undoubtedly put up huge numbers had his war not ended in mid 1942.  Same can be said of some of the americans who were either removed from combat because of US rules of how many missions a guy could fly, or like McGuire, death. Even a few high scoring Germans like Marseille would have put up even larger numbers had they lasted until the end as guys like Hartmann did.
Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time

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Offline humble

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Re: top ten
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2008, 11:03:31 AM »
[I've read that all Soviet squadrons do this. One way or another, Soviet kill claims were greatly exaggerated..../i]

One of the most moronic comments I've read here. For the most part russian claims were among the best documented on any front. No question that mistakes and overclaiming did occur but the soviets also denied a much higher % of claims. Soviet records actually have suprisingly significant detail including enginer block/airframe #', pilot name/rank etc for a suprisingly high % of claims.

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Offline Widewing

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Re: top ten
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2008, 11:13:05 AM »
McCampbell is usually the "forgotten one".   Sure folks are quick to name Bong, Boyington, Vraciu, Gay and others.   But this badass was keeping score with pencil hash marks on the dashboard of his F6F-5, while downing 9 in one day during the Marianas Turkey Shoot.   He had already shot 7 in day four months prior.   He is the only American to repeat this.   

Also note that when he landed the 9 kills, he literally had 2 rounds of .50 cal left.   If you ever come across "McCampbell's Heroes", get it.   I read it for the first time 21 years ago in the 8th grade.   I've read it a few times since as it a good narrative.   

Indeed, Bong and McGuire get a great deal of attention, while David McCampbell is generally ignored...

His accomplishments, however, do outshine the P-38 aces in many respects.

McCampbell shot down 34 Japanese and had 21 ground kills. He also had 5 probables. Moreover, he managed all of this in one 6 month deployment. His best day was described above, but I will add that he shot down 7 Zeros and 2 Ki-43, with two probables (spinning towards the ocean on fire, but not seen to crash). It should be noted that this was done during a single sortie, not multiple sorties in a single day or over several days. This feat is the single sortie record for Allied pilots in WWII. Earlier, on June 19, McCampbell had shot down 7 Japanese fighters during a single sortie.

In contrast, McGuire was in combat for nearly a year and a half, except for 7 weeks when he was recovering from injuries sustained when his P-38 was demolished by Zeros and he was forced to bail out. The best McGuire managed was 7 kills over two days.

Bong was in combat for a total of just over 18 months. His best single day score was 4 kills.

All three of these gents were superior fighter pilots, but only McCampbell is generally unknown. Part of that results from the Navy not making the massive public relations effort that the USAAF did during the war. Also, unlike Bong and McGuire, McCampbell survived the war. This meant that his name wasn't splashed all over the National news media as Bong's tragic accident was. McGuire didn't garner the attention of American media due to a stateside accident, but his loss was reported extensively in newspapers and newsreels. McCampbell remained in the Navy, retiring in 1964. He died in 1996 and is buried at Arlington.

There's little doubt that had McCampbell been able to fly a second tour (as did both Bong and McGuire), he would have easily exceeded both in total kills.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Widewing

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Re: top ten
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2008, 11:31:31 AM »
[I've read that all Soviet squadrons do this. One way or another, Soviet kill claims were greatly exaggerated..../i]

One of the most moronic comments I've read here. For the most part russian claims were among the best documented on any front. No question that mistakes and overclaiming did occur but the soviets also denied a much higher % of claims. Soviet records actually have suprisingly significant detail including enginer block/airframe #', pilot name/rank etc for a suprisingly high % of claims.

I'll argue that Soviet claims were extremely unreliable. In their short war with Japan in the late 1930s, they made massive over-claims. Likewise, Soviet pilots claimed more F-86s shot down in Korea than the total deployed there during the entire war. Why would their penchant for huge exaggeration be any different in WWII? It was standard procedure to "gun deck" the claims, else draw wrath from the political commissars. They were worse than the Japanese, and the Japanese were horrendous. 

I've documented the above on the forums several times.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline angelsandair

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Re: top ten
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2008, 01:32:48 PM »
I'm thinking that they'd tell everyone else lies, but the real records my be false too. I know the Soviet Scoring system called for the plane wreckage to be found for it to count as a kill.
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Zazen13

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Re: top ten
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2008, 03:36:31 PM »
Didn't the US give partial kill credit for assists and planes on the ground? I think it was even possible to get a 1/4 kill.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 04:31:18 PM by Zazen13 »
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