Author Topic: South Osetia under attack  (Read 117445 times)

Offline Jappa52

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #270 on: August 11, 2008, 12:07:50 AM »
If you compare this to the middle east conflict, then its quite clear that this should warrant a military responce. But i doubt he wants to wage war against a real enemy. Having fought only ragheads from the mediaval times for so long, i dont think the US military grunts would cope with this conflict, they have gotten too used to the middle east style of "warfare" and the grunts would be up for a big shock in a war wheres theres a real enemy.



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Offline Hangtime

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #271 on: August 11, 2008, 12:21:15 AM »
And slovakia was once czechoslavakian territory. I guess it's lucky thing for the slovakians that geography and the ussr stuck them with the czechs and not the georgians. They still would've been just as deserving to the right of self determination though. Doesn't mean they would've gotten to exercise it.
 

And once, this entire nation of ours was owned by many other peoples... they're on 'reservations' now; have been since before there was a national entity called Ossetia, which; as you know know, was created by the Soviet Union. They (North American Indians) have self determination in their Autonomous Nations, their own leaders, their own schools, don't pay federal or state taxes on their lands, have their own cultural heritage, speak their own languages.

And if Canada were to start supplying them with RPG's, Artillery and providing armor and air support with the intent of forcing the US to revert the lands that are on the American side of the border to Canadian administration, we'd probably get just a tiny bit pissed. We might even 'invade' those indian nations and crush the instigators, gather up the RPG's and Artillery and kick the Canadian 'peacekeepers' back over the border. Imagine the laughter if the canadians cried 'but it was ok in Serbia!!' LOL!

Unless of course, Obama's in charge... then he might let the issue slide; depending on who's paying for the dental plan. *shrug*

BTW, there are in fact Indian Nations that encompass Canadian and US Lands.

http://www.linna.ca/

Now.. here we are; back to page one. It's Georgian territory. The Russians have invaded. The right and wrong of it begins and ends right there.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 12:26:38 AM by Hangtime »
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Offline ghi

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #272 on: August 11, 2008, 12:48:19 AM »
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 12:52:00 AM by ghi »

Offline Elfie

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #273 on: August 11, 2008, 12:48:47 AM »
Quote
And slovakia was once czechoslavakian territory.

So? Czechoslovakia was dissolved in a peaceful agreement. It apparently was something both sides wanted. South Ossetia's independence isn't something both sides desire. Apples to oranges here.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 12:51:30 AM by Elfie »
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Offline Suave

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #274 on: August 11, 2008, 12:59:31 AM »
Obviously if ossetia existed in 1903 it isn't a soviet creation. C'mon Hang the soviets went through all the trouble to invent a language for them too?

Quote
They (North American Indians) have self determination in their Nations, their own leaders, their own schools, don't pay federal or state taxes on their lands, have their own cultural heritage, speak their own languages.

Right, and that's what the ossetians don't have. Georgia wouldn't allow them to have their own leaders, their own schools, their own language, and certainly not any kind of independence from tax. That is what started the whole war 17 years ago and displaced 100,000 ossetians, the georgification of ossetia after the breakup of the soviet union.
I think some of you have been drinking from boroda's bottle. I say that not to be rude but in the hopes that it gives you pause for some introspection. If one or more parties of a discussion has an emotional investment in the reconciliation of his point of view with the objective facts the discourse is not a discussion it's an argument. In an argument the burden of objectivity is cast off, as the parties to an argument regard only the facts that asuage his emotion, and disregard or rationalize away the facts that are incongruous with his contention.
And that's why arguing is a waste of time, it has nothing to do with divining the truth, and everything to do with emotional gratification.

Offline Elfie

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #275 on: August 11, 2008, 01:11:38 AM »
Quote
Right, and that's what the ossetians don't have. Georgia wouldn't allow them to have their own leaders, their own schools, their own language, and certainly not any kind of independence from tax. That is what started the whole war 17 years ago and displaced 100,000 ossetians, the georgification of ossetia after the breakup of the soviet union.

The boundaries of Georgia were set when the USSR broke up. Why should Georgia allow them to have their own leaders? (Provincial leaders I can see having, sorta like state governors) South Ossetia is but a province within a larger whole. One nation, one language.....that simplifies things for a nation. (Just look at the USA, press 1 for English, 2 for Spanish) Why should they be exempt from taxes? Is the rest of Georgia exempt? My guess would be no.
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Offline Hangtime

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #276 on: August 11, 2008, 01:26:44 AM »
Obviously if ossetia existed in 1903 it isn't a soviet creation. C'mon Hang the soviets went through all the trouble to invent a language for them too?

Nope... revolutionary activity started in the region in 1903, but the 'nation' didn't exist until after the Bolshevik revolution... and then when it DID come into being, South Ossetia was part of Georgia.

Revolutionary activity had began in South Ossetia as early as 1903. S. Kirov directed Bolshevik activities in the region from 1909, and shortly after the outbreak of the February Revolution a soviet was formed at Vladikavkaz.

The South Ossetia became a part of the Georgian Menshevik Republic with the break up of the Russian empire in 1918, while the North formed a part of the Terek Soviet Republic.


Suave, yer graspin at straws. ;)

Next... the American Indians were not given Autonomy prior to them accepting American Sovereignty. The South Ossetians; rather than accept similar Georgian terms for autonomy have remained intractable... and have in effect been in a state of rebellion since the soviet union collapsed and Georgia resumed control of the Georgian State.. which South Osseitia has been a part of, since jump street.

Suave.. my interest in this discussion devolves around the truth.. not propaganda. My emotional involvement is nil; beyond the usual 'nailed it' pursuit of using the truth to make the point. I'm enjoying the intelligent discussion... and mean you no personal ill. Hope the debate continues in the same vein.

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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #277 on: August 11, 2008, 01:56:25 AM »
Imho Bush (and the US) could save alot of face by backing Georgia in this time of crisis, be it with troops or military hardware. I mean, Georgia, an Ally of the USA that are fighting in Iraq alongside US and coalition forces, Georgia wich Bush frantically lobbyed to get into Nato.

If he sit backs and just watches this one, then i dunno really.

If you compare this to the middle east conflict, then its quite clear that this should warrant a military responce. But i doubt he wants to wage war against a real enemy. Having fought only ragheads from the mediaval times for so long, i dont think the US military grunts would cope with this conflict, they have gotten too used to the middle east style of "warfare" and the grunts would be up for a big shock in a war wheres theres a real enemy.

I think not. 'Twould be the red bear to be bitten, seeing as how they've never faced a truly modern army in combat since the end of WWII.

The real thing is, is how long do you try to play the political angle before you have to drop that approach and go to your guns, if you are the U.S.? If reports' are true, and the russians' are edging into Northern Georgia, then we will have to do something really fast.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #278 on: August 11, 2008, 02:55:56 AM »
Last thing before bed-

Quote
TBILISI, Georgia - Georgia says it has received a Russian ultimatum that it must disarm troops near the breakaway province of Abkhazia or face Russian forces moving into Georgian-controlled territory.

Georgian Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia says Gen. Sergei Chaban, who is in charge of Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia, conveyed the demand Monday via U.N. military observers in the area.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia_abkhazia;_ylt=AoqpHFnyUHmz2PghOlcp.Y5bbBAF

If those troops' are on Georgian territory, I wonder how this is gonna play out...


Offline Vulcan

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #279 on: August 11, 2008, 03:47:00 AM »
What a crazy Ivan pilot vulching  BBC journalists ,

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9219993&ch=4226714&src=news

Umm, news team, on the front line, pointing a black oblong object at a low flying aircraft... who's crazy?

Sounds like good spotting by the pilot imho and I woulda dropped more than a couple of rockets on them.

Offline Elfie

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #280 on: August 11, 2008, 04:05:24 AM »
Quote
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ukraine_russia_georgia;_ylt=AixiUUr1HMpM7n9QFazTw.1bbBAF

Interesting development.....seems Ukraine is in no hurry to help their Russian neighbors. In fact, this is likely to anger Moscow.
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Offline Angus

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #281 on: August 11, 2008, 04:29:23 AM »
Just a minute, this is not a state, it's a bloody county:
Area
 -  Total 3,900 km²
1,506 sq mi 

70.000 people
resources: almost none, mostly live off farming.

Don't understand the Georgians for stepping on the Bear's tail just for that....
What they're going to ger out of it is a waking bear one step closer, and if it is to be othervise, it might accelerate into a bloody war.
For no matter what you think of old bears, they still can eat, and know their old habits...
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Offline BiPoLaR

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #282 on: August 11, 2008, 04:32:06 AM »
I personally think its all stupid  :aok
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Offline SD67

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #283 on: August 11, 2008, 04:53:22 AM »
So, what are y'all going to do when Mexico steps in and marches their troops across your border in defence of their citizens being abused in the USA? Since there is this precedent thing and all...:lol
I bet you'd have a field day! :D We'd have a New Texas down there below the existing one within a few months! :rofl How many more stars can you guys fit on that flag anyhow? :devil
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: South Osetia under attack
« Reply #284 on: August 11, 2008, 05:05:09 AM »
So, what are y'all going to do when Mexico steps in and marches their troops across your border in defence of their citizens being abused in the USA? Since there is this precedent thing and all...:lol
I bet you'd have a field day! :D We'd have a New Texas down there below the existing one within a few months! :rofl How many more stars can you guys fit on that flag anyhow? :devil

Mexico isnt a former member of an enslaved Empire that we exploited and kept in chains using the most abhorrent means you can imagine. I really dont get these "America analogys" when comparing whats happening in Georgia with our history.

The most we should do with Georgia is give them arms. There aint one thing there thats worth a Yank kid dieing for, and anyone that thinks different should march their son or daughter down to the recruiting station and get it in writing that they be allowed to fight and die in Georgia. And thats the S/E European Georgia. Not the S/E American one.
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