South Osetia under attack

[FrodeMk3]

Question: How much planning would it take to send two armored columns into a hostile country?  Lets say with 400 tanks?

Answer:  Many months of planning and supply.

Question: How many Russian tanks have been destroyed?

Answer: Initially Georgia reported 40 Russian tanks destroyed.  We all doubt those figures.  Still Georgia did hold up the Russian column at the border for a good while considering.  If the US has lost 20 tanks, it would be huge news.  Russia also lost at least 2 jets confirmed.  Possibly several more.  I assume Georgia has been supplied with some really nice anti-tank and anti-air systems.  Until they were overwhelmed, it looks like they worked well.

<opinion>  There is a long game to all this.  Putin is attempting to bring down the Us the same way the US brought down Russia.  Putin will sit on the pipeline until he is pushed out.  Note that the pipeline is closed in Turkey due to an attack by Kurds.  but the oil is being off loaded at Georgia ports.  that is until Russia bombed the ports and put them out of commission.

Cut the oil pipeline.  The price of oil goes to $200 and the US fails.  If Europe gives aid to Georgia, Russia refuses to sell oil and gas to Europe.  Putin holds all the cards on this one.

Israel and France are big players.  Expect action from France first.  Israel will supply defensive systems covertly.  The war and occupation in Georgia will go on for as long as it takes to bring the US to it's knees.  (economically speaking) 
</opinion>

Here is a good write-up of the players and stakes in this game.
http://szamko.gnn.tv/blogs/17155/Pipeline_Time

I could see it that way too, Killjoy, except for the timeframe. IMHO, at the rate of Russian advance (They hold Gori, and are pushing deeper) The current Georgia has about a week, two at the outside, before they get to Tibilisi. All the way to the southern border...three weeks, without direct intervention.

[Maniac]

Reporters say that scores of North Osetians, Serbs and Russians are volontering (sp?) at this moment to go and fight.

I dunno Nielsen, you made some sence in the start of the thread with your simple logic, but now its hogwash, Georgia signed the "peace treaty", Russia didnt, or rather full fletched ignored it. Russia has cut Georgia in half and advancing towards their Capital.

Europe IS responding verbally and diplomatically, but toejam you can really feel it its too late now since Russia is in a steamroll mode. And once the steamroll is over they wont leave in a good while imo.

Im with Georgia on this one, like rest of Europe is.

[Dnil]

im confused on something, maybe someone can help me figure it out.


What does Abkhazia have to do with the stuff that started in South Ossetia.  Did Georgia hit stuff in abkhazia at the same time as ossetia?  Looks to me like stuff got lit off in ossetia, then russia came pouring out of 2 areas in response.

[FrodeMk3]

im confused on something, maybe someone can help me figure it out.


What does Abkhazia have to do with the stuff that started in South Ossetia.  Did Georgia hit stuff in abkhazia at the same time as ossetia?  Looks to me like stuff got lit off in ossetia, then russia came pouring out of 2 areas in response.

Reading news' reports, and trying to follow everything, it looks' like oppurtunism on Abkhazia's part.

[Maniac]

Reading news' reports, and trying to follow everything, it looks' like oppurtunism on Abkhazia's part.

Well its Russians that are attacking from Abkhazias territory.

[mg1942]

[killjoy1]

France sends aid.  I'm guessing it isn't all humanitarian.

France to send aid to Georgia, fly nationals back
Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:21pm IST
 
PARIS, Aug 11 (Reuters) - France is sending a plane to Georgia loaded with aid for the victims of the fighting in the separatist region of South Ossetia and is also planning to fly back EU nationals who want to leave, it said on Monday.

The simmering conflict between Russia and its neighbour erupted last Thursday when Georgia sent forces to retake South Ossetia, a pro-Russian province that threw off Tbilisi's rule in the 1990s.

"Concerned by the growing number of victims and displaced people as well as by the considerable damage caused by the conflict in South Ossetia, France has decided to send a first load of humanitarian aid this afternoon," the French foreign ministry said in a statement.

It said the plane would leave France on Monday afternoon with 30 tonnes of equipment including tents, blankets and beds.

"The (Airbus) A-340 plane, which has a capacity of 250 seats, should enable the return to France of the French and European nationals who wish to do so and who are currently blocked in Tbilisi because of the halt in commercial flights," the ministry added.

The ministry said France was consulting its European allies on the possibility of sending further aid shipments. (Reporting by Francois Murphy)

[killjoy1]

France will be first to help:


France's Sarkozy to visit Moscow

August 11, 2008 05:13am
Article from: Agence France-Presse

FRENCH President Nicolas Sarkozy will visit Moscow early in the coming week for talks with Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev over the fighting in Georgia, the Kremlin and the Elysee said today.

Mr Medvedev and Mr Sarkozy, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, held a telephone conversation in which they "agreed to continue discussions in Moscow", the Kremlin press service said, quoted by Interfax.

The French president's office said Mr Sarkozy would visit Moscow "in the coming days" to confer with Mr Medvedev.

Mr Sarkozy said today there was hope of quickly ending the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.

"Following the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, the president of the republic believes there is a real perspective of rapidly finding a way out of the crisis," the presidency said.

The French presidency said Mr Sarkozy "intends to pursue contacts with both (Georgian and Russian) presidents in the coming hours, to bring their positions closer together and create the conditions to end the crisis".

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner arrived in Tbilisi overnight and was due to travel to Moscow tomorrow on a mission to mediate in the conflict on behalf of the European Union which is currently presided over by France.

He was to submit a three-point peace plan to both sides, based on "an immediate cessation of hostilities; the full respect of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia" and "the re-establishment of the situation that existed before".

[Maniac]

And Israel continues to sell Weapons to Georgia.

[Hangtime]

I'm seeing film of civilians, fighting from their cars; right alongside Georgian troops on the road south of Gori.

Looks like the Georgians have some fight in them yet.

The two weeks of resistance time frame may be possible... doubt seriously if the west will do a damn thing to materially support the Georgian defense of their nation; can't see how the Georgian Government can withstand the dismemberment of their air defenses and repel russian armor without immediate and substantial military aid from the west.

The President (ours) will issue a statement at 5:15 pm eastern in the Rose Garden.

I don't hold much hope. Georgia is being used as a pawn... the endgame does not look good.

[Maniac]

Is it worth turning on CNN or are they discussing Britney Spears still?

[AKIron]

Ill settle for this. What i really feel about you would get me permanenlty banned from this place.

If you really wanted to get somethig off your chest there might be another place....

http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/index.php

[Nilsen]

Reporters say that scores of North Osetians, Serbs and Russians are volontering (sp?) at this moment to go and fight.

I dunno Nielsen, you made some sence in the start of the thread with your simple logic, but now its hogwash, Georgia signed the "peace treaty", Russia didnt, or rather full fletched ignored it. Russia has cut Georgia in half and advancing towards their Capital.

Europe IS responding verbally and diplomatically, but poop you can really feel it its too late now since Russia is in a steamroll mode. And once the steamroll is over they wont leave in a good while imo.

Im with Georgia on this one, like rest of Europe is.

Ill make my final statement and reason for beeing on the side of the russians in the initial stages of this conflict and then ill let the thread live on without me. Life it too short to get dragged into another argument that may live as long as the Irak argument. Not gonna waste whats left of the summer

1. Georgia started the fight by attacking the city.
2. Russia defended the citizens that are mostly russians that wants to be free from Georgia.
3. Georgia claims that the russians were only waiting for an excuse. That may be the case, but Georgia gambled and obviously counted on "the west" to step up and help them. By doing so georgia showed its true face and so have the russians. All these other imputs that this is about energy supply and whatnot may or may not be the case. Point is still that Georgia gambled and started an attack that has flattened a city.

Lets hope it ends soon.

The End.

[bsdaddict]

I don't hold much hope. Georgia is being used as a pawn... the endgame does not look good.

The neo-con Bill Kristol is already calling for "emergency military aid"...   

"Georgia, a nation of about 4.6 million, has had the third-largest military presence — about 2,000 troops — fighting along with U.S. soldiers and marines in Iraq. For this reason alone, we owe Georgia a serious effort to defend its sovereignty. Surely we cannot simply stand by as an autocratic aggressor gobbles up part of — and perhaps destabilizes all of — a friendly democratic nation that we were sponsoring for NATO membership a few months ago.

For that matter, consider the implications of our turning away from Georgia for other aspiring pro-Western governments in the neighborhood, like Ukraine’s. Shouldn’t we therefore now insist that normal relations with Russia are impossible as long as the aggression continues, strongly reiterate our commitment to the territorial integrity of Georgia and Ukraine, and offer emergency military aid to Georgia?"

[Dnil]

if thats the case nilsen, then what about russia coming through the other enclave?  If it was just about russians in south ossetia then why come through the other hot spot.

How quickly they pushed through smells fishy to me. the other report i read about railroads being repaired months ago in abkhazia by russian peacekeepers has me going hmmmmm also.